Sunday, 27 April 2014

Comments on anissueof ursincerity and droptozro's points

I had done a video on the Shema based on two articles I had written:
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/deuteronomy-64-trinity-vs-shema.html
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/deuteronomy-64-trinity-vs-shema-2.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSJxWtLJ698
droptozro had commented on another video I did and he and I engaged in a discussion about the Shema and he responded to the video and then I responded back to his points here: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/response-to-droptozro.html

I found it amazing the assumption on the part of Unitarians regarding the Shema that they believe it refutes the Trinity, when as a matter of fact, it does NO such thing and doesn't speak on the nature of God to begin with.

Another Unitarian idolater by the name of anissueof ursincerity who has commented in the past, had raised some points, but unfortunately doesn't address my arguments.

Interesting.
The trinity affirms that God is three, trinity, three.
However, the Bible, as in the Shema, affirms God one.
That satisfies me.  Fortunately not being Trinitarian I don't have to twist myself into a pretzel to place a bizarre theory ahead of the plain text.
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Trinitarians believe that God is one, you missed the entire point of my video and straw manned the Trinitarian position.
You assume the Shema is unitarian, when it doesn't speak of God's nature, but how many Gods there are i.e "Hear o Israel the LORD our God is ONE".

The Shema doesn't prove your position, nor mine.
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Trinitarians assert God is one, they also assert God is Trinity; a trinity is three.
The Bible never states God is three,
However, it does, notably in the Shema,
state God is one.
I have no trouble accepting that.
My attitude epitomizes the absence of assumption.  You are making note of what it says then barreling on beyond it to arrive where you wanted to regardless.
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+anissueof ursincerity One what? The Shema doesn't speak on persons and how many there are, that's merely conjecture and assumption on your part. If you have no problem with the statement God is one, what does the statement actually mean? Does it pertain to how many persons of God there are? Or does it simply emphasise that YHWH is the only God? It's the latter in light of the context of the TANAKH and the NT.

If you want to assert it refers to how many persons there are, It leaves us at a standstill, because of the debatable meaning of the word Echad. Both sides can quivel about whether it is singular or plural, but that doesn't go anywhere.
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This is what I have:
I have the Bible/the Shema/Jesus (to the scribe) affirming God is one.
This is what I do not have:
The Bible/the Shema/Jesus/Tanakh/NT
affirming God is three.
I only have "one" ascribed to God.
I do not have "three" ascribed to God.
I am moved by Jesus words to the scribe,
and I choose to worship the God whom Jesus worshipped.
You are invited to do the same.
Peace.
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+anissueof ursincerity Trinitarians, again, say God is one and subscribe to the Shema. Again, you haven't addressed my points and interacted with them, you have tap-danced around them.
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My point is simple regarding the Shema. In it's context, it only talks about how many Gods there are, not how many persons make up the one God.

Here is the Shema in context:
"6 These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, 2 so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life. 3 Hear, Israel, and be careful to obey so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the Lord, the God of your ancestors, promised you.

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

10 When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. 16 Do not put the Lord your God to the test as you did at Massah. 17 Be sure to keep the commands of the Lord your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. 18 Do what is right and good in the Lord’s sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land the Lord promised on oath to your ancestors, 19 thrusting out all your enemies before you, as the Lord said."

Trinitarians DO affirm that God is one, and there is no other but he. Any time a Unitarian says "Oh you guys believe God is three but the Bible says God is one thus the Trinity is false" do the two following points:
1. Strawman the Trinity
2. Miss the entire point of the Shema completely

Also, Unitarians have to deal with John 1:1, Philippians 2:5-11, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 2:8-11, Revelation 22:12-17 and other passages demonstrating Christ's deity.

I can only see Unitarian Christians as pagans and idolaters masquerading as Christians. If you want to argue Jesus only worshipped the Father (which he did) disproves the Trinity, then you NO understanding of the Trinity at all. Jesus worshipping the Father doesn't falsify the Trinity, quite to the contrary it is part and parcel of the Trinity. You have one member of the Godhead worshipping and glorying the other.

To also respond to a point made a while back by droptozro which can be found here as well as the entire conversation that transpired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjKI77-40jY

"Last.. you are completely illogical in claiming you don't have to face whether or not you or Jesus is an idolator.  You must not actually be reading my comments, because you denied the "false" dilemma and then fell right back into it when you said my "unitarianism" is idolatrous.  

See this is the humorous part you haven't seemed to face.  Jesus... is a unitarian(if we use that word to mean a 'one-person God').  Jesus is not and was not a trinitarian.  His God was not a 3 person God.  So as you rather humorously call me an idolator--you are calling Jesus an idolator.  So you've clearly made your choice.  I hope you repent and face that fact---you've got to call Jesus an idolator if the trinity is true.  This is completely consistent because I have the same God as Jesus, the Father alone."

If the Trinity is true, I don't have to call Jesus an idolater, here's why.

Jesus worshipping the Father is RIGHT and proper. The Trinitarian position takes this into consideration, but also recognises that Jesus demands such devotion of his own followers, plus there are also the texts from John, Philippians and Revelation which I have mentioned where Jesus is identified as God AND NOT in the sense of how Moses was called God in Exodus 7. The possible exceptions being Psalm 45 and possibly Isaiah 9:6.

In what sense Jesus would be not a Trinitarian? If one means in the sense he doesn't worship One God in Three Persons, then that is understandable, but that wouldn't logically cause Jesus to be idolatrous.

For the Christian however this is different, considering the points I have stated above, Christians have no choice to acknowledge Christ as a member of the Trinity and acknowledge there is One God in Three Persons, with Jesus being the Second Person of the Trinity. Furthermore, Jesus does call for prayer to himself:

"John 14:9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

This doesn't mean you bring a request to Jesus and he simply goes to the Father with your request, though that is possible. Jesus actually asserts that if you ASK HIM in his name, HE WILL DO IT. He could only answer prayers if he is omnipresent, an attribute that belongs to God alone and certainly is not a trait that a mere man or angel or divine creature who is less than God possesses. Even though the word me is a later addition, it is inferred that Jesus still honours the request presented..

So again, I can safely condemn droptozro, anissueof ursincerity and other Unitarians without condemning Jesus. It is a false dilemma from droptozro that is being presented and all it does show is that he is guilty of the very thing he accuses Trintarians of, namely idolatry.

Answering Judaism.

3 comments:

  1. "In what sense Jesus would be not a Trinitarian? If one means in the sense he doesn't worship One God in Three Persons, then that is understandable, but that wouldn't logically cause Jesus to be idolatrous."

    Yes it does. Jesus does not have a 3 person God. You have a 3 person God. You have a different God than Jesus' God even though he affirms we have the same God, the Father. John 20:17 You're just trying to skirt the issue by saying he's "allowed" to have a one person God within your made up god, and you're not. You have no reason for claiming this "allowance" isn't extended to followers of Jesus. This is nonsense, Jesus wouldn't be teaching us to worship a different deity than the one he's serving. That would be hypocritical. You're making Jesus a false teacher.


    It's this simple. We who follow Jesus as the lord of Psalm 110:1 have the same one God as he did. You condemn him, you condemn us. You aren't dealing with the point except to make up stuff inside your false doctrine that does not exist in the Scripture.


    You cannot deal with the main point, which is the fact that Jesus reveals the Shema as "our"(his) God, as Jesus is a Jew and an Israelite. You're wrestling very hard against clear texts, not difficult texts.

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    1. Correction, it does not make Jesus idolatrous. Him worshipping one member of the Trinity doesn't refute him being YHWH nor does it turn Jesus into a hypocritical false teacher. He can get away with worshipping the Father alone but are not only to worship the Father, we are called to worship Jesus by Jesus as well. No hypocrisy here considering he calls us to worship the Father and himself. Jesus not worshipping "a three person God" doesn't help you.

      You have to contend with the texts I brought up in the book of Revelation and other texts.

      Again, the Shema doesn't lead to Unitarianism because it doesn't teach that or Trinitarianism. It is referring to how many Gods there are, not how many persons in the Godhead there are. Quote that text ad infinitum and nauseum, it doesn't help you.

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    2. Conclusion, I can safely claim Unitarians are idolaters without condemning Jesus. Are you even getting my point in the article?

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