Wednesday 7 January 2015

Shoehorning the Roman Doctrines into Scripture: More arguments to address 2

More points for me to address. This had previously been left alone for a while so here is the paper. For some reason the release date of this article is wrong. I think it was due to the fact I uploaded it before it was finished and then turned it back into a draft.

Here it is uploaded on the 28th of June 2015
"But what of the Sacred Scripture? We also have an abundance of evidence from therein. Jeremiah and Onias pray to God on behalf of Israel. (2 Macc 15) Tobit chapter 12 tells of the 7 great Angels who pray to Yahweh on behalf of the Men on earth. Those same 7 Angels give grace and intercede on our behalf according to Revelation 1:4. Revelation 5 speaks of the elders delivering the prayers of the saints up to God himself. In Jeremiah 15:1 God speaks of the possibility of Moses and Samuel standing before him and interceding on Israel's behalf, but God himself even says this is not good enough, presupposing a precedent already set (as proven via Scriptures & Tradition) of saintly intercession. There is simply no escaping the evidence for Bobo and he grasps at desperate arguments to justify his unbiblical presuppositions. For I go off of the greatest Protestant scholars when I affirm the following:

1) The "dead" are prayed for and biblical authors themselves attempt to intercede on their behalf. ( 2 Tim 1:16-18)
2) Angels can intercede on behalf of mortal men, and the 7 Spirits offering offering prayers and graces are the 7 Angels mentioned in Jewish literature. (Tobit 12, Rev 1:4)
3) Great men of the biblical world can plead on Israel's (or believers) behalf (Jeremiah 15:1, Revelation 5, 2 Macc 15)"

1) 2 Timothy 1:16-18 as nothing to do with the dead being prayed for but rather mercy is to be granted to the house of Onesiphrous for the good he did to Paul and that Onesiphrous may have mercy from the Lord when he comes and judges the world.
"15 You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus."

2) How does intercession of angels on behalf of men justify praying to saints to carry your message to God? It doesn't prove such.

3) Moses and Samuel pleading on Israel's behalf in their day is fine, but again doesn't justify to praying to the saints who have passed on and gone into the presence of the Lord. In Jeremiah 15, The people of Israel's wickedness was so grievous that even if Moses or Samuel were there, he would not deter his anger from Israel, that is the point being made:

"Jeremiah 15:1 Then the Lord said to me: “Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go! 2 And if they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the Lord says:

“‘Those destined for death, to death;
those for the sword, to the sword;
those for starvation, to starvation;
those for captivity, to captivity.’"

This text cannot justify the Romanist position at all, it is simply not there.

Revelation 5 says:

"5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign[b] on the earth.”"

An interesting observation has been made by.... Well, he needs no introduction, I have mentioned him many times.
"Revelation 5:8. Catholics often appeal to Revelation 5:8 (and 8:3-4 which basically says the same thing) as supposed proof for saints being prayed to as well as them presenting these prayers to God. The text says, And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8; cf. 8:3-4). Arguing from this passage is Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch in theirIgnatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament: “The saints in heaven mediate the praises and petitions of the saints on earth (8:3)” (Scott Hahn, Curtis Mitch, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament, [Ignatius Press, 2010], p. 499). The Catholics are guilty of distorting this text. First, the “twenty-four elders” who possess and present these prayers before God are not “saints” who are prayed to by believers. In fact, in 5:8-10 their song of praise differentiates them from people (i.e., saints) who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ. They are also differentiated from the saints in 11:16-18 and 19:1-4. Instead of beings saints they are, as Robert Mounce notes, “an angelic order who serve and adore God as the heavenly counterpart to the twenty-four priestly and twenty-four Levitical orders (1 Chron 24:4; 25:9-13)” (Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation: Revised, ed. Gordon D. Fee, The New International Commentary on the New Testament, [Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1997], pp. 121-122). In agreement are New Testament scholars Alan F. Johnson and N. B. Stonehouse. Second, the evidence shows these twenty-four elders do not have prayers because they were prayed to, as Roman writers suggest. Instead, they have prayers which people offer to God alone, and they bring them to God because of His transcendence. As Mounce further observes,

“The idea of angels acting as intermediaries and presenting the prayers of saints to God is common in later Jewish thought. In Tobit 12:15 an angel says, ‘I am Rafael, one of the seven holy angels, who present the prayers of the saints, and who go in  and out before the glory of the Holy One.’ In 3Baruch 11 it is Michael the Archangel who descends to the fifth heaven to receive the prayers of people. It was the increasing emphasis in Jewish thought on the transcendence of God that made such intermediaries appropriate. In Revelation the twenty-four elders perform this function” (Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation: Revised, ed. Gordon D. Fee, The New International Commentary on the New Testament, [Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1997], p. 135).

Revelation 5:8-10 and 8:3-4 do not support the Roman practice of believers praying to saints and Mary and then them in turn presenting them to God. There is absolutely no biblical basis for this teaching whatsoever, and hence must be rejected by the believer. We go to God directly." Keith Thompson, Mary is not Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all Graces, and Advocate:

Revelation 1:4 needs to be looked into another time. The issue of the apocrypha shall not be tackled here.

Answering Judaism.

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