Wednesday 14 January 2015

Does the Bible condemn homosexuality 2

I had recently go engaged in a comments discussion of John MacArthur with two people trying to defend homosexuality and I hope to respond to some of their objections here for them.

"You are flat out wrong. Which Bible is the 'ture' word of God? I just need one, name and year of printing or hand writing so I'm clear. That true Bible that says homosexual orientation is a sin as they do not all say that - I think you know that, but will not accept that fact homosexual orientation is not in the Bible. (yes homosexual acts, again prison sex acts, like the pagan sex acts Paul talked about in Rom, or pederasty, prostitution; none of that is homosexuality or homosexual orientation - try as you want it to be)"

I look forward to your response to Jason M and AIS, and how you will dance with the Bible for an answer.

I don't want to say young prostitute or pederasty - it is what Paul said, he also said he did not speak for God in Rom - Im sure you know that.

Open your eyes to the truth of Jesus, not man made crap, you have a log.

The Bible in Gen, also talks about incest, polygamy so again which is the 'true' BIble the one with the actual word of god; that you use that is so clear to you?

Jesus who talked of mercy, love, forgiveness and community. Something I try to do without judging - its hard, I'm human. Talking fear which leads to hate that is not Christ like. When you, nor I know what the translation of arsenokoites its just easy to read a mis and re translated Bible and say homos are going to hell. Only God can judge. We know God does not make mistakes, and God made me a homosexual male, I am not a mistake nor did I choose my sexual orientation.

ACTS tells us - In him we live move and have our being, all things are held together by him.  Thats all no matter, not just some."

It's really amazing because I had already given 3 translations before the 1900s which demonstrate the point that DESPITE the word homosexual not being there, it is still what the context of the passages I brought up speaking about.

Saying "Oh what is the true bible" is nothing but a trump card excuse and cop out to get away from addressing the real issue.

Saying also that the Bible doesn't speak on homosexual orientation is nothing more than an argument from silence, the context of the Bible does not leave open the possibility of a homosexual marriage to begin with and to bring up the issue of incest and polygamy is a red herring, because incest wasn't issue UNTIL the Mosaic Law came. Incest was allowed FOR A TIME, not forever, but for a time so that the human race could spread, then outlawed once the Torah was given on Mt Sinai. The condemnation of incest is carried over into the NT itself in 1 Corinthians 5.

"1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord."

If one has a homosexual orientation, Christ can deal with that just as he can deal with those caught in the occult, adultery, murder etc. He can cleanse ANY who come to repentance and even help the person to repent. The person may struggle but they will have the Holy Spirit to convict them and help to follow Jesus.

Jesus understands the struggles of man and what they go through and can help clean them up not just physically but spiritually too. Christians are to have compassion on individuals who are in sin, homosexuals included and we are to teach them and show them why the sinner's actions are reprehensible in the sight of God and give the Gospel to them.

Only God can judge yes, but what does that mean, It simply means only he can judge someone as a person. Human Beings CAN judge A PERSON'S ACTIONS AND DOCTRINE, but not judge them, big difference.

Taking the log out of one's eye refers to HYPOCRITICAL judgement.

If I am not in the same position that someone else is, I can biblically judge them but if I am doing the thing that they are doing and condemning them, then that is wrong and Jesus expects me to rectify this. Taking the log out of someone's eye is not a pretext to never judge someone.

Paul himself could safely speak on behalf of God when he wrote Romans, as the disciples themselves extended the right hand of fellowship, as well as Jesus using Paul as his instrument to bring the Gospel to all nations. Note what I have underlined:
"Acts 9:10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered.

11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”

13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength."

For that matter, Acts is not in anyway suggesting that homosexuality is something created and endorsed, as God established at the beginning MALE AND FEMALE, not male and male or female and female. Let's read:
"Acts 17:24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[b] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[c]".

The context refers to God as sustainer and creator, Paul is essentially explaining to the pagans who is the unknown God they are trying to reach and uses their curiosity as an opportunity to give the message of the Gospel to them. There is nothing about the creation of the homosexual orientation mentioned here, because it is NOT there.

Lastly, Dr Johnathan Safarti addresses the point about the Greek word arsenokoites, which was an argument used earlier in my altercation by one of the objectors. In fact on of the individuals said:

Here's the response from Dr Safarti:
"In 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, Paul actually used a most unusual word, ἀρσενοκοίτης arsenokoitēs, meaning ‘male who has coitus with a male’ (Greekἄρσην arsēn = male). This was not the normal term from the Greek culture. But the Levitical law explains where Paul obtained his binding New Testament prohibition. In English, Leviticus 18:22 reads:
You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
In the Greek Septuagint from which Paul often quoted, it reads:
καὶ μετὰ ἄρσενος οὐ κοιμηθήσῃ κοίτην γυναικός βδέλυγμα γάρ ἐστιν (kai meta arsenos ou koimēthēsē koitēn gunaikos bdelugma gar estin)" Dr Johnathan Safarti:

To say no one knows what arsenokoites means as a means to get around the Bible's plain teaching against homosexuality is nothing more than smokescreen and as we can see, we have a plain condemnation of homosexuality itself.

If you want to say no one knows what it means, fine, that still doesn't refute the fact that Jesus himself made it clear marriage is between a man and a woman and that homosexuality is out of the question. Fornication, bestiality, prostituion, pedarasty, pedophilia and other sexual sins are out of the question as well, since Matthew 19 and Genesis 2 give us a biblical definition of marriage and bringing up what arsenokoites does and does not mean to try and justify homosexual behaviour, is moot.

More objections will come in another paper, namely using hermaphroditism as a crutch to try to justify homosexuality.

Answering Judaism.

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