Thursday 15 May 2014

Defense of Paul of Tarsus: Response to a Muslim 3

More arguments to address are on the way so let's get to it

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities"
(1 Tim. 5:23)

"Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine...."
(1 Tim. 3:8)


"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise"
(Prov. 20:l),

"Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart"
(Hosea 4:11) and (Prov. 23:31-32, Num. 6:1-4)"

Wine in and of itself is not evil, nor wicked to drink. What is condemned in scripture is drunkeness. What occurs in the context of the verses. However, Numbers 6 discusses a different matter:

"6 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of dedication to the Lord as a Nazirite, 3 they must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or other fermented drink. They must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. 4 As long as they remain under their Nazirite vow, they must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins."

Wine being forbidden in the context of the chapter is with respect to the Nazarite vow, which required this of a person if he or she chooses to put themselves under this vow. It is not saying that an ordinary person cannot drink wine.

Funnily enough in a passage often quoted by Muslims, Look what is written. This is from Song of Solomon 5:1:
"5 I have come into my garden, my sister, my bride;
    I have gathered my myrrh with my spice.
I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey;
    I have drunk my wine and my milk."

This passage in context has the man and the woman being in love with each other and expressing their love towards each other. It is clear that wine on an ordinary occasion isn't wrong, but getting drunk is.


"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made...and this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law was 430 years after (Abraham)...."
(Gal. 3:16-17)


"he said unto Abraham, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them 400 years...."
(Gen. 15:13)."

The supposed contradiction is there due to the authors misreading of the text. The 400 years refers to how long the Amorites would live in the Land until they would be kicked out and that Abraham's children would be in Egypt for a time until they could enter the land. The Law of Moses was not given in the land of Egypt, it was given while Moses was in the wilderness on Mt Sinai.


"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
(Heb. 10:31)


"And David said unto God, I am in a great strait; let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for his mercies are great: and let us not fall into the hand of man"
(2 Sam. 24:14)."

Different contexts, Hebrews 10 and 2 Samuel 24 in context actually says:
"30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

"13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three[b] years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite."

Hebrews is talking about falling into God's hand in JUDGEMENT, not in mercy, whereas David is speaking of MERCY, not judgement. David is being judged, but asks God for forgiveness and it is granted to him. Once again, we have a case of being unable to read the Bible accurately.


"But to Israel God saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people"
(Rom. 10:21)


"He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel...."
(Num. 23:21)."

Different contexts again. Paul is quoting from Isaiah 65:2, NOT Numbers 23:21:
"65 “I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
    I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
    I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’
2 All day long I have held out my hands
    to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good,
    pursuing their own imaginations—
3 a people who continually provoke me
    to my very face,
offering sacrifices in gardens
    and burning incense on altars of brick;
4 who sit among the graves
    and spend their nights keeping secret vigil;
who eat the flesh of pigs,
    and whose pots hold broth of impure meat;
5 who say, ‘Keep away; don’t come near me,
    for I am too sacred for you!’
Such people are smoke in my nostrils,
    a fire that keeps burning all day.
6 “See, it stands written before me:
    I will not keep silent but will pay back in full;
    I will pay it back into their laps—
7 both your sins and the sins of your ancestors,”
    says the Lord.
“Because they burned sacrifices on the mountains
    and defied me on the hills,
I will measure into their laps
    the full payment for their former deeds.”"

Isaiah 65 records the deeds of the Israelites and their refusal to repent and return to God and Numbers 23 speaks of God protecting the Israelites from disaster when he took them out of Egypt to bring them to the promised land:

"Numbers 23:18 Then he spoke his message:

Arise, Balak, and listen;
    hear me, son of Zippor.
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
    not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
    Does he promise and not fulfill?
20 I have received a command to bless;
    he has blessed, and I cannot change it.
21 “No misfortune is seen in Jacob,
    no misery observed[a] in Israel.
The Lord their God is with them;
    the shout of the King is among them.
22 God brought them out of Egypt;
    they have the strength of a wild ox.
23 There is no divination against[b] Jacob,
    no evil omens against[c] Israel.
It will now be said of Jacob
    and of Israel, ‘See what God has done!’
24 The people rise like a lioness;
    they rouse themselves like a lion
that does not rest till it devours its prey
    and drinks the blood of its victims.


"And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of 450 years, until Samuel the prophet"
(Acts 13:20)


"And it came to pass in the 480th year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt in the 4th year of Solomon's reign over Israel...."
(1 Kings 6:1).
If there were 476 years between the time the Israelis left Egypt until the first year of Solomon's reign and Judges ruled for 450 of these years, then Saul and David could have only ruled 26 years. Yet, 2 Sam. 5:4 says David alone ruled 40 years."


"Who is the image of the invisible God...."
(Col. 1:15)

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible...."
(1 Tim. 1:17)


"...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved"
(Gen. 32:30),

"And the Lord spoke unto Moses face to face...."
(Ex. 33:11),

"...for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts"
(Isa. 6:5), and (Judges 13:22)."
Same as point I made about 1 Timothy 6:16: There are certain circumstances in the TANAKH where God can veil his glory and manifest himself on earth. This wasn't a true incarnation but God appeared as a man, specifically the second person of the Trinity and elsewhere only the Son can reveal his Father to us.


"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie,...."
(Heb. 6:18),

"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie...."
(Titus 1:2)


"Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets...."
(1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chron. 18:22),

"for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"
(2 Thess. 2:11),

"O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived...."
(Jer. 20:7),

"if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him...."
(Ezek. 14:9),
"Then said I, ah Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul" (Jer. 4:10) and (Jer. 15:18, Gen. 2:17, 5:5)."

In a video response that Nakdimon did to Gomerozdubar, who brought this text up on Paltalk: He said:

"Gomer harps on the unfortunate translation in Jeremiah 20:7 that the Hebrew word "pititani" with "you deceived me", whereas it should be translated and understood as "you persuaded me" or "you enticed me". What has YHWH persuaded or enticed Jeremiah to do? What is Jeremiah lamenting about?

He is lamenting his Prophethood! Jeremiah sees everything he says coming to pass, all the judgements he speaks from God and he is being persecuted severely every time he speaks for God. Therefore, Jeremiah doesn't want to speak the judgements of God anymore, but God persuades him to do so and strenghtens him in the process.

This is NOT talking about decieving Jeremiah in order to make him err. All one has to do is simply READ the text!"

The text in 2 Thessalonians talks about God sending a delusion in judgement because they refuse to believe in the truth. He is handing them over in essence to their unbelief. The same can be said of the texts in 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 18 which both speak on the same event:
"1 Kings 22:19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

24 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah went up and slapped Micaiah in the face. “Which way did the spirit from[a] the Lord go when he went from me to speak to you?” he asked.

25 Micaiah replied, “You will find out on the day you go to hide in an inner room.”"


"2 Chronicles 18:18 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

21 “‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

22 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

23 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah went up and slapped Micaiah in the face. “Which way did the spirit from[a] the Lord go when he went from me to speak to you?” he asked.

24 Micaiah replied, “You will find out on the day you go to hide in an inner room.”"

God also hands the people over to judgement in the text of Ezekiel 14 which says the following, not by himself being a deceiver, but using the prophet as an instrument of judgement on the people, which isn't uncommon today:
"14 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 3 “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When any of the Israelites set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet, I the Lord will answer them myself in keeping with their great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.’

6 “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!

7 “‘When any of the Israelites or any foreigner residing in Israel separate themselves from me and set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet to inquire of me, I the Lord will answer them myself. 8 I will set my face against them and make them an example and a byword. I will remove them from my people. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

9 “‘And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the Lord have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. 11 Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”"

Modern day prime examples would be false teachers in the Word of Faith movement and the Kansas City Prophets, who with their heresies mislead many astray and it's possible that some, but not all, are in that situation due to God judging them for refusing to accept the truth. Others will accept the truth and reject these movements

For further reading on this topic of deceiving people, I thoroughly recommend an article done by Sam Shamoun on this issue: (Sam Shamoun, Does Yahweh Really Deceive?)

Lastly in Jeremiah 15:18, Jeremiah is actually rebuked by God and Jeremiah was mistaken and corrected by God, notice what YHWH says:
"15 Lord, you understand;
    remember me and care for me.
    Avenge me on my persecutors.
You are long-suffering—do not take me away;
    think of how I suffer reproach for your sake.
16 When your words came, I ate them;
    they were my joy and my heart’s delight,
for I bear your name,
    Lord God Almighty.
17 I never sat in the company of revelers,
    never made merry with them;
I sat alone because your hand was on me
    and you had filled me with indignation.
18 Why is my pain unending
    and my wound grievous and incurable?
You are to me like a deceptive brook,
    like a spring that fails.
19 Therefore this is what the Lord says:

“If you repent, I will restore you
    that you may serve me;
if you utter worthy, not worthless, words,
    you will be my spokesman.
Let this people turn to you,
    but you must not turn to them.
20 I will make you a wall to this people,
    a fortified wall of bronze;
they will fight against you
    but will not overcome you,
for I am with you
    to rescue and save you,”
declares the Lord.
21 “I will save you from the hands of the wicked
    and deliver you from the grasp of the cruel.”"
Regarding the texts in Genesis, they say nothing about YHWH deceiving anyone.


"Moreover, Brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And all were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea"
(1 Cor. 10:1-2)


"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel...."
(Ex. 14:19-20)

"the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharoah that came into the sea after them.... But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea...."
(Ex. 14:28-29)."

Who ever brought this objection is basically not understanding the point of Paul. Let's read what Paul ACTUALLY said:
"10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness."

Paul is making a point that despite all that the Israelites had seen and heard, Many died as a result of not listening to God and obeying him. They were spiritually baptised and yet didn't make it into the promise land because of their sin. The Israelites passing through the Red Sea was used to illustrate baptism by water into new life in Christ and the cloud was used to illustrate baptism by the spirit into new life in Christ. This is just simply nit picking on my opponents part.


" that no human being might boast in the presence of God"
(1 Cor. 1:29),

"Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger and not thine own lips"
(Prov. 27:2) and (Psalm 94:4)


"What I am saying I say not with the Lord's authority but as a fool, in this boastful confidence; since many boast of worldly things, I too will boast"
(2 Cor. 11:17-18),

"You have made me act like a fool--boasting like this.... There isn't a single thing these other marvelous fellows have that I don't have too...."
(2 Cor. 12:11)

"...but I laboured more abundantly than they all...."
(1 Cor. 15:10)."

There are different kinds of boasting. In 2 Corinthians, Paul is attacked by false teachers claiming to be special apostles, but who are really apostles by their own appointment and Paul is using his boasting to defend himself from the false charges raised by his opponents and turn their own boasting against them.
Just read the chapters for yourself:
In fact Paul boasts of his own weaknesses in chapter 12 which is also worth noting.

Contrary to what the Muslim author is saying, This is what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:
"9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed."
He even says that it was by God's grace he was able to achieve what he achieved and not simply by his own power and strength. Even in this context, Paul remains humble and acknowledges God as the one helping him.


"For our God is a consuming fire"
(Heb. 12:29)

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...."
(2 Thess 1:8) and (Heb. 10:27)


"The Lord is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy...and his tender mercies are over all his works"
(Psalms 145:8-9)"

Different contexts again. God is both just and merciful. He doesn't punish sinners immediately but gives those men time to repent. But those who refuse his mercy and refuse his offer of salvation, will come to a grisly end by fiery judgement and be cast into eternal hellfire. No contradiction in the contexts.

More objections will come if the Lord Wills me to write.

Answering Judaism.


  1. Gen32:30 Jews have no issue with phrase "face to face" . But Romans believe God appeared on earth with "finite form" when reading such phrase as they failed to read what God declared to those who saw Him face to face (Exodus 33:20).

    Read Deut 5:4 and Deut 4:12 for better understanding.

    1. The context of Genesis 32:30 are not the same as those verses you mentioned.