Monday 19 August 2024

The Great Angel Hunt: A response to Yehuda Yisrael

A recent video by Yehuda Yisrael deals with the subject of the Angel of the LORD and essentially tries to deal with the Christian arguments that Jesus is that angel. This will not be like the last article in terms of structure and listing points but there are certainly a number of points that need to be addressed nevertheless. 

You can find the original video for context: A JEW DEBUNKS THE TRINITY! The BEST WAY to PROVE JESUS IS NOT G-D IN THE FLESH! ‪@LFTV‬ ‪@SOBEIT32AD‬

So let us get into the matter at hand.

Preface

Certainly the argument of could God appear in a shape has to be treaded very carefully (I admit this was something I have failed before at in the past.)

I say it has to be treaded carefully because too often, Christians "panic" for a lack of better term when challenged on the Trinity, the Deity of Jesus Christ etc. There is no need to panic.

When it comes to whether or not God could do this or that, that again has to be treaded carefully. 

To give an fictional example, let us use Doctor Who as an example and one of it's most famous concepts, regeneration, a Time Lord's ability to change their bodily form upon the death of an incarnation. The earliest example being the episode, "The Tenth Planet."

MrTardis in his review of "The Tenth Planet" wondered if the episode would have been nearly as memorable without the Cybermen and Regeneration ending but he acknowledged it was a reductionist way of looking at the episode as it has those things and is an iconic story for those reasons.

In other words, with the TANAKH and New Testament as real examples, we have to deal with what is written rather than hypotheticals of whether or not God could take the form of a man, a calf, a goat or as Tovia Singer mentions "a cottage cheese sandwich." which he obviously said that God wouldn't.

The question among Jews and Christians should not be "Could God become a man?", really it should be "Did God become a man?"

The contention is whether or not this actually happened or not is what will be discussed. Do forgive the jumping all over the place in this article.

The Three Deuteronomies

Though late in the video, Yehuda talks about bringing Christians to deal with these passages.

The passages that ought to be dealt with here are the three passages from Deuteronomy 4, 5 and 13 and with respect to Deuteronomy 13 particularly, I am somewhat disappointed that Yehuda has brought that passage as an argument to the table again but some arguments do need addressing more than once.

Deuteronomy 4:10 how on the day that you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, the Lord said to me, ‘Gather the people to me, that I may let them hear my words, so that they may learn to fear me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children so.’ 11 And you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, while the mountain burned with fire to the heart of heaven, wrapped in darkness, cloud, and gloom. 12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice. 13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments,[b] and he wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and rules, that you might do them in the land that you are going over to possess.

15 “Therefore watch yourselves very carefully. Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 beware lest you act corruptly by making a carved image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth. 19 And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven. 20 But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.

Deuteronomy 4 as it appears does require a fair amount of unpacking.

There is a warning for all time not to make an image in anything and not even worship a man or a woman though create by God's hand.

However, the passage in question doesn’t preclude the idea of God appearing in visible shapes, be it Moses beholding the image of God or as found in Isaiah 6 when God is seated on the throne. The warning against idolatry still stands but the command doesn’t stop God appearing in a visible shape albeit temporarily, as he did that in Genesis 18 and Exodus 24. (More on the passages later.) It also doesn't suggest that God is promising never to appear in an incarnation down the line (Raised in the comments, not the video)

Deuteronomy 5 says the following, similarly to that of the previous chapter:

5 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today. 4 The Lord spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, 5 while I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord. For you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain.

Once again it repeats the reference to the previous incident at Horeb and talks of the people talking to God intimately (Which is what face to face means, a valid point. which is found in Exodus 33:20, more on Exodus 33 later.)

The passages of Deuteronomy 4 and 5 (and 13) shouldn't be ignored as commandments and the point that Yehuda made is that the commandments of God take precedent over any appearances of the angels.

While a valid point, the commandments do not override and refute the Christian point of God appearing visibly as a man nor do they refute "The Great Angel Hunt" nor is it circular reasoning.

Moreover, it is not as simple as saying Jesus is not a manmade creation as Yehuda mentions the fact that Adam himself was not a man made creation (as with the sun and the stars.) which he is right in pointing out the rashness in the argument made.

However, When Jesus' deity is properly argued for, There is no justification for the worship of the sky, sun, moon, stars and other things as verse 19 is also an exhortation not to bow down to them. Rightly It is not bowing to idols only that is forbidden, but also bowing down to what is in the sky and the seas below. Even in the book of Revelation, John bows to an angel and this is what he is told.

Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

7 “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.

Even in the New Testament, heavenly bodies and even the angels and ordinary men cannot and must not be worshiped.

Does this refute Jesus being the Angel of the Lord? No. 

As for Deuteronomy 13, we read the following:

13 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil[a] from your midst.

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace[b] or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.

The point brought to the table by Yehuda is this:

"Abraham never prayed to Jesus, Moses never prayed to Jesus, none of these prophets the TANAKH ever prayed to Jesus so Jesus falls into the the category of other gods who Israel has not known. Even if he resurrected himself from the dead which obviously I don't believe but even if that was the case, it would still put Jesus in that category of being another god who Israel has not known and therefore you're to reject that prophet because they are not a true prophet, Resurrection or not, it makes no difference."

I'm sorry but the resurrection does make a difference as I have explained to you in the past and this is an opportunity to dive into that.

First, I agree miracles prove nothing about the genuineness of a prophet for even false prophets can do mighty works.

To highlight a point within Christian circles, John MacArthur raised this concern in his book Strange Fire with respect to Deuteronomy 13:

"The New Testament is relentless in echoing that same warning. Anyone who claims to speak for God while simultaneously leading people away from the truth of God's Word is clearly shown to be a false prophet and a deceiver. Even if such a person makes accurate predictions or performs supposed wonders, he is to be disregarded-since Satan himself is able to perform counterfeit miracles (cf. 2 Thess 2:9)" (John MacArthur, Strange Fire, Pg 107)."

He points out and is correct that even a false prophet can proclaim the name of God and still be condemned if the doctrine he brings is unbiblical and speaks also on the immorality accompanying said prophet.

Resurrection however unlike other miracles is a unique miracle in it's own category.

A prophet who was raised from the dead is an example of God confirming the prophet, his words, his deeds and teachings to be true and vindicating his claims. In the passage of Deuteronomy 13, resurrection of a prophet who had previously died is not treated as a grounds for rejecting a prophet. If anything, a death with no resurrection until the end of days is the nail in the coffin for the prophet. 

If Jesus was a false prophet, There is also no reason to think that God is still testing people by raising him from the dead to see whether he is followed or not, that would be nothing more than a cruel cosmic prank, so the only conclusion is that the resurrection really happened as God confirming the message.

Furthermore, As I have said in my response to Yisroel Blumenthal: 

The people of Israel would not have needed Jesus to be explicitly seen at Mt Sinai in order for the Christian position to be valid, the main criteria for that would be if Jesus himself told the truth and his claims of himself were accurate, especially the claims he made that no creature could make, which would be blasphemy if Jesus was a mere creature. (https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2024/07/what-of-jeremiah-1011-response-to-rabbi.html

Now as as far as Abraham and Moses were concerned, they were worshipping Ha Shem but them not knowing Jesus directly would not mean Jesus is a separate God that the people have not known, they just simply were not aware of the Triunity of the Godhead as we are now. A lack of awareness of Jesus does not suggest he is a strange god.

The Trinity to be reiterated here teaches there is one eternal God, but this one God exists as Three Divine Persons, The Father, The Son (Who Jesus is) and The Holy Spirit which as James White has noted was revealed in the incarnation of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

The resurrection would not only vindicate Jesus, but lends credibility to the Trinity as well.

Furthermore, Jesus doesn't tell the Israelites or the Jews of his day to worship other gods, on the contrary, he calls his people back to the God of Israel, even going so far as to call out the Pharisees for essentially binding the people to traditions of men rather than keeping the commandments of God. So Jesus once again doesn't fall into calling people to "Serve other gods, gods you have not known."

Lest anyone (though the argument wasn't used by Yehuda but this is a preemptive response) think that Mormonism or Islam or any cult group after Christianity can logically be true as a result of the arguments I have been making, the argument of Avodah Zara against Christianity doesn't work.

Muhammad failed this, Joseph Smith failed this and certainly Balaam would have failed this. If Jesus rose from the dead, he ends up being vindicated and having the Father’s stamp of approval. If anyone wants to say it proves nothing, there is no evidence in the TANAKH, even in Deuteronomy 13 that the same false prophet would be raised later to test the people, it simply wouldn’t happen.

If Jesus' claims in the New Testament are false, then this argument could hold some weight.

If Jesus' claims in the New Testament are true, you have no choice but to accept him as Ha Shem, specifically the Second Person of the Trinity, no ifs, no buts.

The Angel of the Lord "Inconsistencies"

Courtesy of Sam Shamoun who was very helpful in this a decade ago, I had written articles on the Angel of the Lord. In PMs on Paltalk, he was instrumental in arguing a solid case for the Angel of the Lord.

https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-angel-of-lord.html

https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2013/10/more-on-angel-of-lord.html

https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2013/10/even-more-on-deity-of-christ-and-angel.html

https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2014/07/some-more-on-deity-of-christ-and-angel.html

Are we Christians being inconsistent on the subject of this? Are we being inconsistent on the subject of the Angel of the LORD and do we have to logically say that Isaiah and Moses are God? No.

To begin with and reiterate a comment made in Contra Blumenthal, While you are free in the matter to suggest that the angel is a representative, this wouldn't undercut Jesus being God and appearing to the people as an angel functionally. 

Jesus is Ha Shem, but he is not the Father, however this wouldn't detract from the fact he can function as the Father's agent or his representative. It's one member of the Trinity speaking on behalf of another, like in the examples that were given by Yehuda himself where a representative can speak on God's behalf. If Jesus himself is Ha Shem, then he is worthy of the devotion that is given to God, considering he is in nature God (Philippians 2:5-11) but is a distinct person from the Father. If however he is not God, I think Jews and Christians already know the answer to that one.

Funnily enough in the first article on the Angel of the Lord above and although it has not been recorded, I actually did have a small discussion with Yehuda on the text at least a decade ago.

I will post both Chabad.org's translation AND the ESV and you can read Genesis 18 and 19 for yourself:

Chabad: 

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8213

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8214

Bible Gateway ESV: 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2018&version=ESV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2019&version=ESV

As to whether or not we have a consistent standard to identify the Angel of the LORD as God, that is easy. Not every single occurrence of the Angel of the LORD is God, Furthermore, it is important to remember that even though the Angel of the LORD speaks on behalf of the LORD, that is not what makes him God, it's when someone, identifies himself as such.

Jesus didn't exist as a man before man existed. He didn't take on flesh until 2000 or so years ago. Jesus appeared to Jacob in the form of a man (more on that point), it was temporary and wasn't a true incarnation. It's not until the time of the NT that he had a physical body.

With regards to Genesis 18, There is a difference between taking on flesh and taking on appearance of a man. The angels appeared as men (and are described as men) in Genesis 18, but we know they aren't men. 

Although I have said the above regarding Jesus and Jacob and the following: Likewise, Jesus appeared to Jacob, but only appeared as a man, rather than have a true incarnation centuries later. There is some contention with this passage and I would encourage you to reading the original comments, lest I be accused of being inconsistent.

Some of my original wording has been brought here with some changes.

It has been argued that Jacob wrestled with a mere angel based on the word Elohim by Yehuda and others. Why do I say that? The word Elohim can be used of mighty men, angels, judges, kings and false gods and doesn't always refer to the true God. This is true, context determines the meaning. 

The contention with the passage is the assertion of whether or not the angel Jacob is did he wrestle with God or did he wrestle with a mere angel. 

In Jacob's own words, he says he saw God and lived even if he didn't see the glory of God. He didn't see God's glory obviously if we take this to mean Jacob wrestled with God.

If it is a mere "Elohim" or angel, that is a valid reading of the text. At the end of the day, either side has some validity to their interpretation, even with Hosea 12:4-5 interpreted as a mere angel sent on Ha Shem's behalf.

Regardless of the position you take on Hosea 12, it would not refute other theophanies that occur elsewhere.

But going back to Genesis, One of the angels in Genesis 18-19 doesn't head down to Sodom and Gomorrah, the other two go down there, hence one of the men or angels who appeared to Abraham is God, who stayed with Abraham and spoke with him. The two men were angels ontologically, whereas Christ functioned as an angel.

Two of the men go down to Sodom and Gomorrah but one doesn't and stays near Abraham, then leaves after the conversation. Obviously, angels and prophets are not synonymous with God, however my claim is that there is a particular angel in the TANAKH who functions as an angel, but is in nature God.

Let's take a look at Isaiah 7:10-14:

"6 “Let us invade Judah; let us tear it apart and divide it among ourselves, and make the son of Tabeel king over it.” 7 Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘It will not take place,

    it will not happen,

8 for the head of Aram is Damascus,

    and the head of Damascus is only Rezin.

Within sixty-five years

    Ephraim will be too shattered to be a people.

9 The head of Ephraim is Samaria,

    and the head of Samaria is only Remaliah’s son.

If you do not stand firm in your faith,

    you will not stand at all.’”

10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[e] will call him Immanuel.[f]"

Isaiah does function as an agent but this is a different context to Genesis 18, since Isaiah himself isn't being identified as God, but in the context of Genesis 18, The angel is identified as God explicitly and Abraham even stood before him and talked with him as a regular person. 

Isaiah was merely used as a mouthpiece to convey the words of God to Ahaz and tell him what will transpired. These are two different contexts and do not refute Jesus being the angel of YHWH, nor do they prove that Isaiah is synonymous with God himself. There isn't inconsistency or lack of consistency here.

The same that was said of Isaiah also applies to Moses in the context of Deuteronomy 29 with the latter being used as the mouthpiece of God:
"29 [a] These are the words of the covenant that the Lord commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb.

2 [b] And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, 3 the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. 5 I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet. 6 You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God. 7 And when you came to this place, Sihon the king of Heshbon and Og the king of Bashan came out against us to battle, but we defeated them. 8 We took their land and gave it for an inheritance to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of the Manassites. 9 Therefore keep the words of this covenant and do them, that you may prosper[c] in all that you do."

Once again, Moses was the mouthpiece to convey the words of God rather than the identification as God.

Now let's take a look at Exodus 3:1-6

"3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God."

So we also know back in Exodus 3 the Angel of the LORD appears to Moses in the Bush, yet the text later on says God called to him from within the Bush. This isn't a mere agent speaking like Isaiah or Moses, this angel is Ha Shem himself. The Trinity is the way to reconcile this.

Seeing one's glory and yet living

Let us look at Exodus 33:
7 Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, far off from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the Lord would go out to the tent of meeting, which was outside the camp. 8 Whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people would rise up, and each would stand at his tent door, and watch Moses until he had gone into the tent. 9 When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent, and the Lord[a] would speak with Moses. 10 And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, each at his tent door. 11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

12 Moses said to the Lord, “See, you say to me, ‘Bring up this people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.’ 13 Now therefore, if I have found favor in your sight, please show me now your ways, that I may know you in order to find favor in your sight. Consider too that this nation is your people.” 14 And he said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” 15 And he said to him, “If your presence will not go with me, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how shall it be known that I have found favor in your sight, I and your people? Is it not in your going with us, so that we are distinct, I and your people, from every other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And the Lord said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”

The passage of seeing God yet living is not inconsistent when it comes to the Angel of the LORD being God. Moses wanted to see God in his full glory but God made it clear to Moses that he and the rest humanity cannot see God in his full glory though he is able to partially give us a glimpse of it and allows Moses to see that glimpse.

If we took the interpretation that Jacob did wrestle with God, does it make God a liar in Exodus 33:20? No it doesn't. All that demonstrates is a partial glimpse of the glory of God.

It is important to note that even if God didn't show himself in visible form to Israel at all, this wouldn't dent the Christian position at all.

Temunah
One of the arguments presented by Yehuda is the uniqueness of Moses regarding the image or Temunah of God and this I was first exposed to in a video raised in a response to Sam Shamoun (Found here: Demonstrating that G-d does not appear to Israel in ANY FORM. (Including man!) Sam Shamoun Debate

Some overlap with that video shall be included as it bares relevance to what Yehuda is talking about.

He goes to Numbers 12 and connects it to Exodus 33:

12 Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman. 2 And they said, “Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. 3 Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all people who were on the face of the earth. 4 And suddenly the Lord said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting.” And the three of them came out. 5 And the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forward. 6 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” 9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

10 When the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous,[a] like snow. And Aaron turned toward Miriam, and behold, she was leprous. 11 And Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord, do not punish us[b] because we have done foolishly and have sinned. 12 Let her not be as one dead, whose flesh is half eaten away when he comes out of his mother's womb.” 13 And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her—please.” 14 But the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be shamed seven days? Let her be shut outside the camp seven days, and after that she may be brought in again.” 15 So Miriam was shut outside the camp seven days, and the people did not set out on the march till Miriam was brought in again. 16 After that the people set out from Hazeroth, and camped in the wilderness of Paran.

According to Yehuda, only Moses is capable of seeing the Temunah and that when looking at the angels, including Exodus 24, the Israelites weren't seeing a physical image of God. It says in Numbers 12 that other prophets are spoken to in visions and dreams, not seeing God's physical image, only Moses, whatever that means, only Moses knows. But every other prophet in the TANAKH (Moses being the greatest and distinct relative to the others), whatever Jacob saw was not a literal God man entity or fleshy man God later revealed to be Jesus.

This argument doesn't help Yehuda's case in the slightest. You cannot disregard the idea of Jacob wrestling with God on that alone.

Furthermore, even in visions, a visible shape of God is seen, even though it was not the Temunah that Moses saw. Exodus 24 we shall look at:
24 Then he said to Moses, “Come up to the Lord, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and worship from afar. 2 Moses alone shall come near to the Lord, but the others shall not come near, and the people shall not come up with him.”

3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the rules.[a] And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do.” 4 And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. 6 And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

9 Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.

12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.” 13 So Moses rose with his assistant Joshua, and Moses went up into the mountain of God. 14 And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we return to you. And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you. Whoever has a dispute, let him go to them.”

15 Then Moses went up on the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain. 16 The glory of the Lord dwelt on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. 17 Now the appearance of the glory of the Lord was like a devouring fire on the top of the mountain in the sight of the people of Israel. 18 Moses entered the cloud and went up on the mountain. And Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights.

If Moses was the only one to see this, he is recording what he saw, if we go by the interpretation that is given by Yehuda.

The other points he makes deals with the fact Aaron did not have this experience of the temunah and what is happening in Exodus 24 is a vision. 

Once again, arguing it's a vision doesn't get around or deal with a visible shape being seen, even in the citing of Ezekiel 1:26 which is used as a comparison in the video response to Shamoun. Why do I bring this up?

The reason is in the response to Shamoun, Yehuda explains that the word raglaw doesn't necessarily refer to feet but to a foundation, as Passover, Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) and Weeks (Feast of First Fruits) are referred to as the Shalosh Regalim or the Three Feet and that it doesn't have to refer to physical feet.

In Strong's concordance, of the 32 occurrences of raglaw in the TANAKH, only 27 refer to feet, the context in each of those refer to physical feet, including Exodus 24:10: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/raglav_7272.htm

While I will not contest that raglaw doesn't always have to meet feet, the context of Exodus 24 makes it clear it is not referring to a foundation on the sapphire, hence Sam Shamoun's point about the feet stands.

Another one of the examples of Ha Shem's visibility is found as even Isaiah (some have argued he had a vision though David Pawson has argued is that it's not but I digress) in chapter 6 sees God sitting on his throne:

6 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train[a] of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”[b]
4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

Granted this reaction is specific due to the sin and immorality of Israel at the time whereas in Exodus 24 that was not the case, Isaiah's reaction to God even in a vision is a testament to the idea of God being seen in the visible shape. If a vision is enough to cause Isaiah to feel unclean in the presence of God, what does that tell you about God's holiness even veiled in this manner?

There was a lot to unpack but it was important to address the video nevertheless.

Answering Judaism.

Thursday 25 July 2024

Idolatry, Incarnation and the Definition of Marriage: A response to Yisroel Blumenthal

I posted a response to Rabbi Blumenthal's article on Jeremiah 10:11, an article of his which you can read here: https://judaismresources.net/2011/05/17/tell-them-jeremiah-1011/


Rabbi Blumenthal after I had posted my response kindly directed me to two papers which I would encourage the readers to look at for themselves.


Incarnation and Definition of Marriage
Rabbi Blumenthal gives a story for context which I will share here:
"Reverend Smith’s gaze shifted from Mary to Jane and back to Mary again. The Pastor broke the long silence: “What! You want to get married in MY church?! Don’t you know where I stand on the issue of same-sex marriage?”

Mary looked the Pastor in the eye: “This is not a “same sex marriage” – don’t you know that Jane is an incarnation of a man. She is one hundred percent man and one hundred percent woman. I fully expect you to sanction our marriage.”

Reverend Smith looked at Mary. It was Mary who broke the silence this time: “What’s the matter? You don’t believe in the incarnation?”

“I have four problems with your incarnation claim” said the Pastor. “Number one; there is no such thing as an incarnation. The Bible speaks of male and female as if it is self-understood that these are two separate entities. The usage of the language in the Bible doesn’t allow us to assume that these two terms (male, female) are interchangeable in any way.

Number two; even if I were to grant that such a thing was possible, how would you, Mary, know that this is true about Jane?”

At this point Mary interrupted the Pastor’s little lecture: “What do you mean: “how do I know”? – I have many proofs that Jane is the incarnation of a man. You didn’t even listen to me and you are already discrediting my theory.”

Reverend Smith continued: “Mary, your comment brings me to my third point. You didn’t SEE Jane as an incarnation of a man, it is something you believe you have proof for. Let me ask you this: What came first? Was it your devotion to Jane or was it your theory? Did you first begin a relationship with Jane and the come up with your theory? Or was it the other way round – that you first “discovered” that Jane was an incarnation of a man and only then did you enter into a relationship with her?”

It was Mary’s turn to remain silent.

The Reverend continued: “My fourth problem with your theory is that even if Jane was, in some mysterious way, an incarnation of a man, but presently all you see is a woman. Your relationship with her is still a relationship between two women. I can never condone, let alone bless, such a relationship as a marriage.”"

The story given does highlight the reasoning given as to why the incarnation of Jesus isn't accepted by the Jewish People.

The analogy itself isn't bad, though the comparisons are fundamentally different.

Both the Rabbi and I would reject Mary's reasoning as a terrible excuse to justify her relationship with Jane. With this absurdity going on in the western world, Piers Morgan could identify if he wanted to, as a two spirit penguin.

The characteristics of the human body being male and female are immutable, for God designed mankind to be that way. Humanly speaking, both the Rabbi and I would agree that someone's claim of being transgender or non-binary is absurd, even with convoluted excuses that are presented which do nothing but bolster the fact the person in question is rebelling against God. The argument made in point one is certainly indisputable, male and female, though they be human, are two genders that God created and not interchangeable.

The incarnation as found in Christianity is different from the differences between men and women that but before that, it's worth answering a question, which I'll rephrase from the story:

"What came first? Was it your devotion to Jesus or was it your theory? Did you first begin a relationship with Jesus and the come up with your theory? Or was it the other way round – that you first “discovered” that Jesus was an incarnation of a man and only then did you enter into a relationship with him?"

I cannot speak for others, but my awareness of Jesus came from my background in infant school though my conversion didn't take place around 2010, but regardless, there were many things I took for granted about Jesus and it was only in later years that I was concerned as to who he was, the spiritual depression that I had around 2010 was a contributing factor to whether or not he was true.

Some time in-between then and still to the present day some beliefs changed which can be found on this website but essentials remained. Christians generally on conversion come to Jesus to deal with their sin and later are taught or should be catechised into the faith on the essentials.

The normal means of hearing the Gospel is proclaimed is the usual stuff, Repent and accept the Lord Jesus, for he died for your sins so you can be redeemed to God. some accept, some reject. Generally speaking, a devotion to Jesus usually comes first then afterwards.

Other times it could be simply researching who Jesus is, examining his claims and testing them to see whether they hold up to scrutiny. It varies among individuals.

As to who Jesus was is a question that is asked at different stages of the beginning of the Christian life, though sometimes later in life.

As for the fourth point from the reverend in the story, the point is well made though again this does harken back to the difference between the "marriage" in the story and the incarnation, which does harken also back to whether or not the claims of Jesus are valid, not just face value but through digging deeper.

I wish to take a look at the particular comments made at the end. 

"The One TO whom all worship is due and the ones FROM whom worship is due are distinct and separate throughout the Bible. At no point in the Scriptures is there any indication that these two are interchangeable.

The disciples of Jesus never SAW that Jesus was an incarnation of the Divine – it was a theory they “discovered”.

The followers of Jesus only came up with this theory AFTER they were already fully devoted to him.

After everything is said and done, the Jesus that the Christian reads about in the Christian Scriptures has all of the characteristics of a created being. When a relationship is formed with the character described in the book, no matter what theory is appended to the character, the relationship remains a relationship between two created beings."

The disciples may have seen Jesus as an ordinary man who simply did miracles at first, that much is true. The miracles in and of themselves didn't prove he was God but the claims Jesus made about himself in the Gospels show that the disciples were convinced he was more than a man. So in a sense after the disciples become more fully devoted, there was something about Jesus that differentiated himself from other men. I can happily provide examples if needed but at the moment, It's best to focus on what Rabbi Blumenthal has presented.

Jesus did have the marks of a human being but his claims to being divine are unlike Mary's claims about Jane, claims that are rejected by Jews and Christians who know their scriptures. The main difference is that Jesus' claims can be examined to see whether he is liar, lunatic or Lord and whether the Trinity is a divine revelation revealed at the incarnation of Jesus, whereas the claims of Mary regarding Jane can be easily dismissed as rank absurdity right off the bat, even if we were to dig deeper.

Idolatry and Definition of Marriage
Here is a look at the other article:
"The Biblical concept of the marriage relationship constitutes of a union between a man and a woman. According to the Bible, each of these was designed by God to fill a different role in the context of a marriage. A relationship that consists of two men or two women is not considered a marriage because the two respective roles that make up a Biblical marriage are not present in the union.

The relationship between God and those who worship Him is compared to a marriage (Jeremiah 2:1). The difference between God and any of His creations is far greater, both qualitatively and quantitatively than the difference that exists between a man and a woman. God is the Author of all existence and all of His creations are the recipients of His kindness.

When two beneficiaries of God’s kindness enter into a relationship with each other, that relationship cannot be considered “worship of the divine”. Worship of the Divine consists of a relationship between the One Author of all existence on the one side and His creations on the other side.

When one beneficiary of God’s kindness faces another beneficiary of God’s kindness in relationship – and that relationship is elevated in their respective minds to the status of “worship of the divine” – than that relationship has become idolatrous."

There isn't much to disagree with here, Rabbi Blumenthal sums up the relationship between God and men who worship him very well.

I won't repeat the point I made above too much as the previous section looked at a longer article. My point about Jesus again goes back to two choices.

1. If Jesus was not who he claimed to be, Rabbi Blumenthal would be right in rejecting him and his point ultimately would be valid, for Jesus would have been a wicked blasphemer.
2. If Jesus was who he claimed to be, then the Trinity (One God in three Persons with Jesus being the Second Person) and the Hypostatic union (Fully God and Fully Man) would be safeguards against the danger of idolatry in accordance with Deuteronomy 4:15-20.

I realise this was lengthy, but I hope I have answered the points.

Answering Judaism.

Friday 19 July 2024

House of David and Zechariah 12:10: Inclusive of the Messiah: A response to Yehuda Yisrael

This article is an opportunity to look into Zechariah 12:10 and response to Yehuda Yisrael.

The video involving Radar Apolgetics can be watched here: Radar Apologetics RUNS FROM Yehuda Yisrael?!

You can also watch the video commenting on Michael L Brown regarding this issue: Correcting Dr. Michael Brown on Zechariah 12:10.

See also this supplement to the video: I DEBUNKED Dr. Michael Brown LIVE on His Own Line Of Fire Show!

The rabbinic commentary isn’t what I will be focusing on in this article.

While I also believe in the Trinity, for now, it has no bearing on the discussion yet as the main issue is whether the argument from Yehuda holds up to scrutiny. The Trinity wouldn’t present a problem when taking the two natures of Jesus into account, both God and Man, the latter of which is the chief focus.

First, let’s quote Zechariah 12. The translation comes from Chabad.org.

1The prophecy of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Says the Lord, Who stretches out the heavens and founds the earth and forms the spirit of man within him:            אמַשָּׂ֥א דְבַר־יְהֹוָ֖ה עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֗ה נֹטֶ֚ה שָׁמַ֙יִם֙ וְיֹסֵ֣ד אָ֔רֶץ וְיֹצֵ֥ר רֽוּחַ־אָדָ֖ם בְּקִרְבּֽוֹ:

2Behold! I am making Jerusalem a cup of weakness for all the peoples around, and also on Judah, [that he] shall be in the siege against Jerusalem.               בהִנֵּ֣ה אָ֠נֹכִי שָׂ֣ם אֶת־יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֧ם סַף־רַ֛עַל לְכָל־הָֽעַמִּ֖ים סָבִ֑יב וְגַ֧ם עַל־יְהוּדָ֛ה יִֽהְיֶ֥ה בַמָּצ֖וֹר עַל־יְרֽוּשָׁלִָֽם:

3And it shall come to pass on that day that I will make Jerusalem a stone of burden for all peoples; all who bear it shall be gashed, and all the nations of the earth shall gather about it.                       גוְהָיָ֣ה בַיּֽוֹם־הַ֠הוּא אָשִׂ֨ים אֶת־יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֜ם אֶ֚בֶן מַֽעֲמָסָה֙ לְכָל־הָ֣עַמִּ֔ים כָּל־עֹֽמְסֶ֖יהָ שָׂר֣וֹט יִשָּׂרֵ֑טוּ וְנֶֽאֶסְפ֣וּ עָלֶ֔יה כֹּ֖ל גּוֹיֵ֥י הָאָֽרֶץ:

4On that day, says the Lord, I will smite every horse with bewilderment, and its rider with madness. And upon the house of Judah I will open My eyes, and all the horses of the peoples I will smite with blindness.                     דבַּיּ֨וֹם הַה֜וּא נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֗ה אַכֶּ֚ה כָל־סוּס֙ בַּתִּמָּה֔וֹן וְרֹֽכְב֖וֹ בַּשִּׁגָּע֑וֹן וְעַל־בֵּ֚ית יְהוּדָה֙ אֶפְקַ֣ח אֶת־עֵינַ֔י וְכֹל֙ ס֣וּס הָֽעַמִּ֔ים אַכֶּ֖ה בַּֽעִוָּרֽוֹן:

5And the princes of Judah shall say to themselves, "The inhabitants of Jerusalem were my strength through the Lord of Hosts, their God."              הוְאָֽמְר֛וּ אַלֻּפֵ֥י יְהוּדָ֖ה בְּלִבָּ֑ם אַמְצָ֥ה לִי֙ יֹשְׁבֵ֣י יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֔ם בַּֽיהֹוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת אֱלֹהֵיהֶֽם:

6On that day I will make the princes of Judah as a fiery stove among wood, and as a brand of fire among sheaves. And they shall consume on the right and on the left all the nations round about, and Jerusalem shall still stay in its place in Jerusalem.                  ובַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֡וּא אָשִׂים֩ אֶת־אַלֻּפֵ֨י יְהוּדָ֜ה כְּֽכִיּ֧וֹר אֵ֣שׁ בְּעֵצִ֗ים וּכְלַפִּ֥יד אֵשׁ֙ בְּעָמִ֔יר וְאָֽ֨כְל֜וּ עַל־יָמִ֧ין וְעַל־שְׂמֹ֛אול אֶת־כָּל־הָֽעַמִּ֖ים סָבִ֑יב וְיָֽשְׁבָ֨ה יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֥ם ע֛וֹד תַּחְתֶּ֖יהָ בִּירֽוּשָׁלִָֽם:

7And the Lord shall first save the tents of Judah, so that the boasting of the house of David and the boasting of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not increase over Judah.                  זוְהוֹשִׁ֧יעַ יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶת־אָֽהֳלֵ֥י יְהוּדָ֖ה בָּרִֽאשֹׁנָ֑ה לְמַ֨עַן לֹֽא־תִגְדַּ֜ל תִּפְאֶ֣רֶת בֵּֽית־דָּוִ֗יד וְתִפְאֶ֛רֶת ישֵׁ֥ב יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֖ם עַל־יְהוּדָֽה:

8On that day the Lord shall protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the weakest of them shall be, on that day, like David. And the house of David shall be like angels, like the angel of the Lord before them.               חבַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא יָגֵ֚ן יְהֹוָה֙ בְּעַד֙ יוֹשֵׁ֣ב יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֔ם וְהָיָ֞ה הַנִּכְשָׁ֥ל בָּהֶ֛ם בַּיּ֥וֹם הַה֖וּא כְּדָוִ֑יד וּבֵ֚ית דָּוִיד֙ כֵּֽאלֹהִ֔ים כְּמַלְאַ֥ךְ יְהֹוָ֖ה לִפְנֵיהֶֽם:

9And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem.            טוְהָיָ֖ה בַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֑וּא אֲבַקֵּ֗שׁ לְהַשְׁמִיד֙ אֶת־כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֔ם הַבָּאִ֖ים עַל־יְרֽוּשָׁלִָֽם:

10And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.                    יוְשָׁפַכְתִּי֩ עַל־בֵּ֨ית דָּוִ֜יד וְעַ֣ל | יוֹשֵׁ֣ב יְרֽוּשָׁלַ֗םִ ר֚וּחַ חֵן֙ וְתַ֣חֲנוּנִ֔ים וְהִבִּ֥יטוּ אֵלַ֖י אֵ֣ת אֲשֶׁר־דָּקָ֑רוּ וְסָֽפְד֣וּ עָלָ֗יו כְּמִסְפֵּד֙ עַל־הַיָּחִ֔יד וְהָמֵ֥ר עָלָ֖יו כְּהָמֵ֥ר עַֽל־הַבְּכֽוֹר:

11On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon.                    יאבַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא יִגְדַּ֚ל הַמִּסְפֵּד֙ בִּיר֣וּשָׁלִַ֔ם כְּמִסְפַּ֥ד הֲדַדְרִמּ֖וֹן בְּבִקְעַ֥ת מְגִדּֽוֹן:

12And the land shall mourn, every family apart: The family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart.               יבוְסָֽפְדָ֣ה הָאָ֔רֶץ מִשְׁפָּח֥וֹת מִשְׁפָּח֖וֹת לְבָ֑ד מִשְׁפַּ֨חַת בֵּֽית־דָּוִ֚יד לְבָד֙ וּנְשֵׁיהֶ֣ם לְבָ֔ד מִשְׁפַּ֚חַת בֵּֽית־נָתָן֙ לְבָ֔ד וּנְשֵׁיהֶ֖ם לְבָֽד:

13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of the Shimeites apart, and their wives apart.                  יגמִשְׁפַּ֚חַת בֵּֽית־לֵוִי֙ לְבָ֔ד וּנְשֵׁיהֶ֖ם לְבָ֑ד מִשְׁפַּ֚חַת הַשִּׁמְעִי֙ לְבָ֔ד וּנְשֵׁיהֶ֖ם לְבָֽד:

14All the remaining families-every family apart, and their wives apart.               ידכֹּ֗ל הַמִּשְׁפָּחוֹת֙ הַנִּשְׁאָר֔וֹת מִשְׁפָּחֹ֥ת מִשְׁפָּחֹ֖ת לְבָ֑ד וּנְשֵׁיהֶ֖ם לְבָֽד:

The argument presented regarding Zechariah 12:10 is if the House of David is inclusive of the Messiah, this would mean the Messiah would not be the one thrust through (though the chronology of Zechariah 12 is something discussed in the supplement response by Yehuda addressing Brown and his comments as to why it makes no sense with Jesus which is another issue.)

The point as explained to me in the comments was that the person debating Yehuda is gotten into accepting the premise and it is incontrovertible that you cannot disagree with the premise.

This allowed Yehuda to box Radar Apologetics and Michael L Brown in a corner where they had to say, “Wait a second, it’s not that.” and change their position.

The argument presented in my view is a bait and switch fallacy. It assumes that the Messiah is of the House of David and thus cannot be the one thrust through, instead the Messiah is looking upon the one thrust through.

The House of David being inclusive of the Messiah cannot be avoided. Messiah Son of David logically comes from the House of David, hence the name.

Even in Messianic prophecies agreed upon by Jews and Christians, The Messiah Son of David often stands alone with respect to his role as king and his works. He has subjects, followers and people who will stand with him, but he is the representative of the House of David. He rules on behalf of God as the Messianic King and within the parameters of obedience to God can act as he sees fit, separate from his house, taking or leaving the counsel of others.

You can safely have the Messiah Son of David thrust through and be the one who is mourned for. You don’t have to cast aside him being of the House of David either.


How does it make sense in light of Jesus?

While slightly off topic, Yehuda had a debate with a Black Hebrew Israelite called Ahrayahla Sicarii and in that debate, Yehuda kept pressing Ahrayahla on Zechariah 12 to give his interpretation: Who Are the Real Jews of The Hebrew Bible? Orthodox Jew Versus "Sicarii Hebrew Israelite. 

So, Why not give my take on Zechariah 12 here?

For argument’s sake, let us run with the translation by Chabad, look to me because of the one they thrust through. To repeat my response to Menashe Walsh. I will not dispute that the chapter does refer to the protection of Jerusalem and God joining Israel in the battle to turn the tide against the Gentiles who are attacking them. (Naturally, a Christian, including myself would acknowledge a second coming, but in any case, the point made above is valid.)

Does Zechariah 12 refer to a battle that took place after the writing of his book a little while afterward, or is it a future event that is going to happen? I think it would be a possible reference to both.

But putting that aside, considering the events taking place to this day in Israel and the Jews receiving the protection, it is plausible that they have that protection from God now despite belief or unbelief and regardless of whether they accept Jesus, as it has always been by God’s grace the Jewish people continue to exist, whether they be Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic Jews, or even Ethiopian Jews (Also known as Beta Israel.) Regardless of the scattering of the Jewish people, they have also thrived. I will concede (though the point wasn’t made by Yehuda) that Zechariah 12 doesn’t refer to the destruction of Jerusalem 40 years after Jesus came.

However, one way to look at the passage is that all the events transpire in Zechariah 12 in the end of days, then finally the Jews (the ones who didn’t believe) see Jesus face to face and mourn because they pierced him, the very one who can offer redemption and protection. In other words, the piercing had already taken place before a major battle itself.

If the reading given from Chabad is correct, (though it says swords not spears in parentheses but regardless it is someone who is thrust through with a weapon.) The Jews look to YHWH because of the one who was pierced by the Romans, The Son of David himself, who will return to bring vengeance on the enemies of God.

Would it be possible that Jesus' death is a catalyst for these events in Zechariah 12 and then the Jews coming to grips with what they did to the Messiah are possibly reconciled to him? I'll leave you the reader to decide.


The Trinity

Regardless of the reading you take with Zechariah 12:10, the doctrine of the Trinity remains untouched as passages that deal with the Deity of Jesus are dealt with elsewhere. I have written articles about the doctrine of the Trinity if you desire to check them out:

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/deuteronomy-64-trinity-vs-shema.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/deuteronomy-64-trinity-vs-shema-2.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/response-to-droptozro.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/comments-on-anissueof-ursincerity-and.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/three-person-one-person-false-dilemma.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/spirit-of-god-response-to-anonyemous.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/classical-trinitarian-objections.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/challenge-from-facebook-unitarian.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/the-trinity-is-not-truth.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/the-angel-of-lord.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/more-on-angel-of-lord.html

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/even-more-on-deity-of-christ-and-angel.html

Answering Judaism.

Addendum: All mankind due to our sin were responsible for Jesus dying on the cross and while the Jews of his day called for the Romans to put him to death, either way there is regret for what happened.

Saturday 6 July 2024

Response to Yehuda Yisrael on his video to the Jewish Catholic

In terms of videos, Yehuda Yisrael had responded to a video done by Jewish Catholic. There was more of an exchange if you can check the description but the video, I want to look at is Yehuda’s response to “The "JEWISH CATHOLIC" FAILS to Defend his Faith Against Yehuda Yisrael!” and take a crack at addressing the arguments raised by him.

I have also listened to Yehuda’s debate with that of Radar Apologetics as well which gave me a better understanding of his position was that though blood atonement was A way to get atonement, it is not the ONLY way. The debate can be found here: Finally! My Debate with Radar Apologetics: Is Jesus Necessary For The Forgiveness Of Sins Today?

It has been a while since I have interacted with Yehuda but nevertheless, I had a listen through to his video to the Jewish Catholic. Let’s see what has been said. I have written down several points and I have had to relisten carefully so that there should be no misrepresentation of the arguments. Time stamps have been included where Yehuda deals with certain points and it is only fair to look at the original video in context to get an understanding of the issues at hand.

1:39-4:06

The argument presented from Leviticus 26 is the usage of the humbling of the heart and confession of sin as a legitimate means of dealing with sin according to the Torah in times of exile and how it refutes dealing with Hebrews 9:22. Yehuda mentions that this objection had not been addressed, though I think this can be dealt with a point he later makes. We will see why shortly.

4:19-5:56

A reference to the Talmud, Berkhot 26b was raised by Jewish Catholic and the thrust of the point made by Yehuda Yisrael was a refusal on the part of the Christian to deal with the Torah directly that “contradict your Christian claims”. The point made was the Rabbinic ideas are supporting exactly what it says in the Torah and that the Christians pretend the Rabbis made this up and is not in the Torah.

6:10-7:35

The reference is still included on screen in the video. Jewish Catholic mentions the subject of the Rabbis replacing sacrifices with prayer. The point that Yehuda mentions is the refusal to link what Daniel did in his prayers in Daniel 6 back to the Torah in Leviticus 26, and that Daniel is praying three times a day just as the rabbis had prescribed for the different services in the temple, making those sorts of analogies.

The point raised is so that the Jews can go back to rebuild the temple and the Jews say at the end of their prayer services that they want the rebuilding of the temple and the reestablishment of the Levitical Priesthood, along with the Prophets description of the third temple. (That too I can look at later as I have a bit to say on the subject.)

Basically, Yehuda’s point is what the rabbis prescribe is consistent with the TANAKH and not their own fabrication.

7:55-8:33

Another reference in the Talmud that gets raised by Jewish Catholic is that of Rosh Hashanah 16b. Yehuda Yisrael comments that Jewish Catholic brings up superfluous details distracting us from the rabbis giving us a paper trail from Leviticus 26 to Daniel 6 of what the Jews do and have done from the Torah and the Prophets implementing that. There is simply a validation for what the Jews have always done in times of exile.

Lastly, I shall quote Leviticus 26:38-41 and judging by Yehuda’s footage in question which looks to be Chabad.org, for the sake of this video, All TANAKH related references shall be quoted from there unless another translation is used, or I quote from my articles. All New Testament references however will be quoted from Bible Gateway.

Let’s look at Leviticus 26.

38You will become lost among the nations, and the land of your enemies will consume you.                   לחוַֽאֲבַדְתֶּ֖ם בַּגּוֹיִ֑ם וְאָֽכְלָ֣ה אֶתְכֶ֔ם אֶ֖רֶץ אֹֽיְבֵיכֶֽם:

39And because of their iniquity, those of you who survive will rot away in the lands of your enemies; moreover, they will rot away because the iniquities of their fathers are still within them.                      לטוְהַנִּשְׁאָרִ֣ים בָּכֶ֗ם יִמַּ֨קּוּ֙ בַּֽעֲו‍ֹנָ֔ם בְּאַרְצֹ֖ת אֹֽיְבֵיכֶ֑ם וְאַ֛ף בַּֽעֲו‍ֹנֹ֥ת אֲבֹתָ֖ם אִתָּ֥ם יִמָּֽקּוּ:

40They will then confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers their betrayal that they dealt Me, and that they also treated Me as happenstance.                  מוְהִתְוַדּ֤וּ אֶת־עֲו‍ֹנָם֙ וְאֶת־עֲוֹ֣ן אֲבֹתָ֔ם בְּמַֽעֲלָ֖ם אֲשֶׁ֣ר מָֽעֲלוּ־בִ֑י וְאַ֕ף אֲשֶׁר־הָֽלְכ֥וּ עִמִּ֖י בְּקֶֽרִי:

41Then I too, will treat them as happenstance and bring them [back while] in the land of their enemies. If then, their clogged heart becomes humbled, then, [their sufferings] will gain appeasement for their iniquity,                      מאאַף־אֲנִ֞י אֵלֵ֤ךְ עִמָּם֙ בְּקֶ֔רִי וְהֵֽבֵאתִ֣י אֹתָ֔ם בְּאֶ֖רֶץ אֹֽיְבֵיהֶ֑ם אוֹ־אָ֣ז יִכָּנַ֗ע לְבָבָם֙ הֶֽעָרֵ֔ל וְאָ֖ז יִרְצ֥וּ אֶת־עֲו‍ֹנָֽם:

42and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob, and also My covenant [with] Isaac, and also My covenant [with] Abraham I will remember. And I will remember the Land,                מבוְזָֽכַרְתִּ֖י אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֣י יַֽעֲק֑וֹב וְאַף֩ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֨י יִצְחָ֜ק וְאַ֨ף אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֧י אַבְרָהָ֛ם אֶזְכֹּ֖ר וְהָאָ֥רֶץ אֶזְכֹּֽר:

43[For] the Land will be bereft of them, appeasing its sabbaticals when it had been desolate of them, and they will gain appeasement for their iniquity. This was all in retribution for their having despised My ordinances and in retribution for their having rejected My statutes.             מגוְהָאָ֩רֶץ֩ תֵּֽעָזֵ֨ב מֵהֶ֜ם וְתִ֣רֶץ אֶת־שַׁבְּתֹתֶ֗יהָ בָּהְשַׁמָּה֙ מֵהֶ֔ם וְהֵ֖ם יִרְצ֣וּ אֶת־עֲו‍ֹנָ֑ם יַ֣עַן וּבְיַ֔עַן בְּמִשְׁפָּטַ֣י מָאָ֔סוּ וְאֶת־חֻקֹּתַ֖י גָּֽעֲלָ֥ה נַפְשָֽׁם:

44But despite all this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant that is with them, for I am the Lord their God.               מדוְאַף גַּם־זֹאת בִּֽהְיוֹתָ֞ם בְּאֶ֣רֶץ אֹֽיְבֵיהֶ֗ם לֹֽא־מְאַסְתִּ֤ים וְלֹֽא־גְעַלְתִּים֙ לְכַלֹּתָ֔ם לְהָפֵ֥ר בְּרִיתִ֖י אִתָּ֑ם כִּ֛י אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה אֱלֹֽהֵיהֶֽם:

45I will remember for them the covenant [made with] the ancestors, whom I took out from the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a God to them. I am the Lord.             מהוְזָֽכַרְתִּ֥י לָהֶ֖ם בְּרִ֣ית רִֽאשֹׁנִ֑ים אֲשֶׁ֣ר הוֹצֵֽאתִי־אֹתָם֩ מֵאֶ֨רֶץ מִצְרַ֜יִם לְעֵינֵ֣י הַגּוֹיִ֗ם לִֽהְי֥וֹת לָהֶ֛ם לֵֽאלֹהִ֖ים אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָֽה:

Response

The argument seems very plausible, and it is so far a good one. However, to suggest you do not need Jesus on that basis is not tenable.

Firstly, I will be generous and grant the rabbis the interpretation as valid and sanctioned by the Torah, that what is being done by Jews even today (And in the time of the Babylonian Exile) is essentially a contingency plan when the temple is not in operation. But granting this would not refute Jesus and the need of his sacrifice nor refute Hebrews 9:22.

The solution as found in the Torah would be a temporary solution even if the rabbinic interpretation is considered. Moreover, this situation as a means of atonement in exile is a less-than-ideal scenario, not the normal situation. I am fully aware that the point is what to do without a temple and not a rejection of blood sacrifice in and of itself but whether Jesus is needed considering what the rabbis have derived from Leviticus 26. (Again, being generous in granting the interpretation here.)

That being said, if I have understood the point correctly, if in the threefold prayers during the services like Daniel the Jews are looking forward to the reestablishment of the temple and the Leviticus priesthood, that simply means there is still a need and a burden among your people for the priesthood and the sacrificial system is a vital thing, it wouldn’t take away from the Christian atonement.

Jesus’ death alleviates that problem entirely, though the subject of the third temple I will save for later.

I do think the argument in question from the rabbinic interpretation, even with some contention still lends credibility to the Christian atonement because of what I have said. It would not contradict the Christian claim that the only way today to be cleansed of sin is by Jesus’ blood as the blood sacrifices were instituted by God through Moses (Though some exceptions were granted in some circumstances but do not take away from the general point regarding Hebrews 9:22.)

I recognise once again that the position based on the debate between Yehuda and Radar is that blood is not the only way but one way to atone and what to do in exile without a temple. Even taking that on board, because the temple has yet to be rebuilt unlike the first exile where it was swift by the standards of the time scales, clearly the conditions have changed and there is a clear difference between the Second Temple Exile and the Babylonian Exile.

9:41-10:16

I need not dwell on this point too much on Leviticus 26 and Daniel 6 but with regards to Hosea 14, let us look at it.

 

1Samaria shall be accounted guilty, for she has rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up.                   אתֶּאְשַׁם֙ שֹֽׁמְר֔וֹן כִּ֥י מָֽרְתָ֖ה בֵּֽאלֹהֶ֑יהָ בַּחֶ֣רֶב יִפֹּ֔לוּ עֹֽלְלֵיהֶ֣ם יְרֻטָּ֔שׁוּ וְהָֽרִיּוֹתָ֖יו יְבֻקָּֽעוּ:

2Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity.             בשׁוּבָה יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל עַ֖ד יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ כִּ֥י כָשַׁ֖לְתָּ בַּֽעֲו‍ֹנֶֽךָ:

3Take words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, "You shall forgive all iniquity and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.                 גקְח֚וּ עִמָּכֶם֙ דְּבָרִ֔ים וְשׁ֖וּבוּ אֶל־יְהֹוָ֑ה אִמְר֣וּ אֵלָ֗יו כָּל־תִּשָּׂ֚א עָו‍ֹן֙ וְקַח־ט֔וֹב וּנְשַׁלְּמָ֥ה פָרִ֖ים שְׂפָתֵֽינוּ:

4Assyria shall not save us; we will not ride on horses, nor will we say any longer, our gods, to the work of our hands, for in You, by Whom the orphan is granted mercy."            דאַשּׁ֣וּר | לֹ֣א יֽוֹשִׁיעֵ֗נוּ עַל־סוּס֙ לֹ֣א נִרְכָּ֔ב וְלֹֽא־נֹ֥אמַר ע֛וֹד אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ לְמַֽעֲשֵׂ֣ה יָדֵ֑ינוּ אֲשֶׁר־בְּךָ֖ יְרֻחַ֥ם יָתֽוֹם:

5I will remedy their backsliding; I will love them freely, for My wrath has turned away from them.                     האֶרְפָּא֙ מְשׁ֣וּבָתָ֔ם אֹֽהֲבֵ֖ם נְדָבָ֑ה כִּ֛י שָׁ֥ב אַפִּ֖י מִמֶּֽנּוּ:

6I will be like dew to Israel, they shall blossom like a rose, and it shall strike its roots like the Lebanon.              ואֶֽהְיֶ֚ה כַטַּל֙ לְיִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל יִפְרַ֖ח כַּשּֽׁוֹשַׁנָּ֑ה וְיַ֥ךְ שָׁרָשָׁ֖יו כַּלְּבָנֽוֹן:

7Its branches shall go forth, and its beauty shall be like the olive tree, and its fragrance like the Lebanon.            זיֵֽלְכוּ֙ יֽוֹנְקוֹתָ֔יו וִיהִ֥י כַזַּ֖יִת הוֹד֑וֹ וְרֵ֥יחַֽ ל֖וֹ כַּלְּבָנֽוֹן:

8Those who dwelt in its shade shall return; they shall revive [like] corn and blossom like the vine; its fragrance shall be like the wine of Lebanon.             חיָשֻׁ֙בוּ֙ יֹֽשְׁבֵ֣י בְצִלּ֔וֹ יְחַיּ֥וּ דָגָ֖ן וְיִפְרְח֣וּ כַגָּ֑פֶן זִכְר֖וֹ כְּיֵ֥ין לְבָנֽוֹן:

9Ephraim; What more do I need the images? I will answer him and I will look upon him: I am like a leafy cypress tree; from Me your fruit is found.                      טאֶפְרַ֕יִם מַה־לִּ֥י ע֖וֹד לָֽעֲצַבִּ֑ים אֲנִ֧י עָנִ֣יתִי וַֽאֲשׁוּרֶ֗נּוּ אֲנִי֙ כִּבְר֣וֹשׁ רַֽעֲנָ֔ן מִמֶּ֖נִּי פֶּרְיְךָ֥ נִמְצָֽא:

10Who is wise and will understand these, discerning and will know them; for the ways of the Lord are straight, and the righteous shall walk in them, and the rebellious shall stumble on them.                      ימִ֚י חָכָם֙ וְיָ֣בֵֽן אֵ֔לֶּה נָב֖וֹן וְיֵֽדָעֵ֑ם כִּֽי־יְשָׁרִ֞ים דַּרְכֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֗ה וְצַדִּקִים֙ יֵ֣לְכוּ בָ֔ם וּפֹֽשְׁעִ֖ים יִכָּ֥שְׁלוּ בָֽם:

The main thrust of the point of Hosea 14 is not whether you need a blood sacrifice or not, it is an exhortation to repent and turn back to God and him restoring them upon their return. Therefore, it does not even put a dent in the Christian position.

Some time stamps I have skipped over as there is not much for me to comment on aside from what I have already written.

13:11-15:52

As I have mentioned before and will grant the contingency plan from the rabbis as valid from Leviticus 26 though this is an additional point I am going to make. 

Once again, it is very strange with respect to the fact the second temple in all this time but even more to the fact that a third one has not been rebuilt from the time after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Regarding the argument that the generation will not pass away. While I have before argued that generation could refer to the race of the Jews not passing away, I recognise that it may not be addressing the second coming at all. 

In fact, not only did Sam Shamoun address this in a video, but he also addressed Shabir Ali on this issue several years ago, in a portion I will quote here. (Italics have been added by me.)

As far as Matthew 16:28 is concerned, Jesus may have been referring to a visible manifestation of his glory and power. Jesus would therefore be promising his disciples that some of them would get a foretaste of what Christ coming in his kingdom would be like. For instance the scriptures teach that two witnesses would herald Christ's coming before he returned in glorious splendor. (Cf. Malachi 4:5; Rev. 11:1-12, 19:11-16)

Mark indicates that this is precisely what Christ meant:

"And he said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.'" Mark 9:1

The fulfillment of this promise took place shortly afterwards:

"After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus." Matthew 17:1-3

The Apostle Peter indicates that this event was the fulfillment of Christ's promise to his followers:

"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the POWER and COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were EYEWITNESSES of his MAJESTY. For he received HONOR and GLORY from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.' We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain." 2 Peter 1:16-18

Secondly, Jesus' statement could also be referring to Christ manifesting his kingly rule and glory at Pentecost. There, the Holy Spirit was poured out miraculously upon believers. This marked the birth of the Church where Christ reigns as King in the heart of believers. (Cf. Acts 2; 22:16-18)

In relation to Matthew 24:34, there are three possible responses. First, the term "generation" is the Greek geneous, a synonym of genes which can mean race. Hence, the race of Jews whom Jesus was addressing would not pass away until the culmination of the age.

Furthermore, Jesus may not have even been referring to his generation per se, but to the generation that would witness the signs that Christ predicted would occur before his Second Coming. (Cf. Mat. 24:15-33)

Finally, Christ may not have even been referring to his Second Coming. Rather, Christ could have been referring to his coming in judgment against Jerusalem. Christ had predicted that the temple and the people living in Jerusalem would be destroyed. This bears out in light of what is said elsewhere in Scripture:

"They produced false witnesses, who testified, ‘This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.' All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel." Acts 6:13-15

Although these men were trying to falsely accuse Stephen there was some truth to what they were saying since Jesus had in fact predicted the destruction of the Temple:

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 'Do you see all these things?' he asked. 'I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.'" Matthew 24:1-2

"As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it and said, 'If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace-but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you.'" Luke 19:41-44

Hence, there are no false predictions but only Shabir's misinterpretation of the Holy Bible. (Source: http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/favorites.htm#mt_proph)

https://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/failedprophecies.htm

Therefore, there is no hypocrisy from the camp regarding this issue of the second temple not being rebuilt. (No hypocrisy from the Jewish camp either.)

16:53-17:23

For this I have no response, admittedly I am not sure why the Jubliee Year is brought up.

17:30-19:38

The point made by Yehuda on the subject of Hosea 3 is that there is no indication that the Messiah had to come before the destruction of the second temple but rather that David their king will come after the final exile which will happen for many days, that it doesn’t say there shall come an intermediate period where the Messiah is going to come, we’re going to miss him and that everyone is going to go into exile and they already had their king and their sacrifice. No (continuing Yehuda’s point here.) it says they will have no king and no sacrifice, that’s referring to the Davidic King, we will have no Davidic king and no sacrifice, that has described the past 2000 years to a tee and that this will be the case up until the Messiah comes and ultimately Jesus didn’t fulfil it.

Let’s look at Hosea 3:

1And the Lord said to me: Go again, love a woman beloved by her companion, yet an adulteress, like the love of the Lord of the children of Israel, who turn to other gods, and love goblets of grapes.             אוַיֹּ֨אמֶר יְהֹוָ֜ה אֵלַ֗י עוֹד לֵ֣ךְ אֱהַב־אִשָּׁ֔ה אֲהֻ֥בַת רֵ֖עַ וּמְנָאָ֑פֶת כְּאַֽהֲבַ֚ת יְהֹוָה֙ אֶת־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל וְהֵ֗ם פֹּנִים֙ אֶל־אֱלֹהִ֣ים אֲחֵרִ֔ים וְאֹֽהֲבֵ֖י אֲשִׁישֵׁ֥י עֲנָבִֽים:

2And I bought her for me for fifteen pieces of silver, and a 'chomer' of barley and a 'lethech' of barley.                בוָֽאֶכְּרֶ֣הָ לִּ֔י בַּֽחֲמִשָּׁ֥ה עָשָׂ֖ר כָּ֑סֶף וְחֹ֥מֶר שְׂעֹרִ֖ים וְלֶ֥תֶךְ שְׂעֹרִֽים:

3And I said to her: 'You shall remain as mine for many days; you shall not play the harlot, and you shall not belong to another man; so will I be towards you.                       גוָֽאֹמַ֣ר אֵלֶ֗יהָ יָמִ֚ים רַבִּים֙ תֵּ֣שְׁבִי לִ֔י לֹ֣א תִזְנִ֔י וְלֹ֥א תִֽהְיִ֖י לְאִ֑ישׁ וְגַם־אֲנִ֖י אֵלָֽיִךְ:

4For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor teraphim.               דכִּ֣י | יָמִ֣ים רַבִּ֗ים יֵֽשְׁבוּ֙ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֵ֥ין מֶ֙לֶךְ֙ וְאֵ֣ין שָׂ֔ר וְאֵ֥ין זֶ֖בַח וְאֵ֣ין מַצֵּבָ֑ה וְאֵ֥ין אֵפ֖וֹד וּתְרָפִֽים:

5Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.                    האַחַ֗ר יָשֻׁ֙בוּ֙ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל וּבִקְשׁוּ֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹֽהֵיהֶ֔ם וְאֵ֖ת דָּוִ֣יד מַלְכָּ֑ם וּפָֽחֲד֧וּ אֶל־יְהֹוָ֛ה וְאֶל־טוּב֖וֹ בְּאַֽחֲרִ֥ית הַיָּמִֽים:

Response

The timing of the Messiah’s first coming (For a lack of better term as Messiah only has one in Rabbinic Judaism but putting that aside.) I do not think occurs at the end of days.

It is true Hosea doesn’t mention the Messiah coming before the second temple was destroyed as a prerequisite (That rests on Daniel 9:24-27 I deem rather than Hosea 3, but I digress.) However, In the years after Jesus had died and rose again, the Jewish people were later rendered without sacrifice (or rather a sacrificial system that didn’t work and what reason that is will be shown later) and before Jesus arrived, the people were already without king or prince. None sat on David’s throne since the Babylonian exile though his descendants had survived, through Jeconiah and Zerubabbel, the later as a governor rather than a prince or king.

Over the years since the temple’s destruction (There is a bit to say on that soon), many Jews have come to faith in Jesus and hence over time have come to “seek the Lord and David their king.”

As for end of days, it is likely that the passage is not necessarily referring to the end of time or the final day but rather a latter age, a final age before the end. Admittedly, the passage does not provide a time frame for these things to be accomplished.

Several translations have differing renderings of the passage which can be read here: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hosea%203%3A5

19:52-20:45

A response to the usage of Yoma 39b was mentioned in passing and is read later in the video. It will require a response later in this document.

21:44-22:16

The point that Yehuda made is that Jewish Catholic claimed the second temple was destroyed because the Jews rejected Jesus.

It’s not as simple as that. I agree with Jewish Catholic on that point but there is more to say than simply that. The wider reason is that when Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied and thus there was no need to continue the Levitical sacrifices anymore. The Talmud of course does not say that this is the case in the passage, but it does note unusual phenomenon occurring with the temple as to why for four decades the sacrifices were rejected. The rabbis would also have rejected Messianic Jewish testimony at the time.

Something clearly happened in the days of Jesus that the rabbis in the Talmud either did not account for or refused to acknowledge. It’s one of those two scenarios.

Yehuda does bring up a rebuttal he has written regarding the Talmudic tradition but that will be looked at later.

22:40-29:11

This point is quite lengthy so please bear with me on this. First, lets look at Zechariah 8:

16These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth each one with his neighbor; truth, and judgment of peace you shall judge in your cities.                טזאֵ֥לֶּה הַדְּבָרִ֖ים אֲשֶׁ֣ר תַּֽעֲשׂ֑וּ דַּבְּר֚וּ אֱמֶת֙ אִ֣ישׁ אֶת־רֵעֵ֔הוּ אֱמֶת֙ וּמִשְׁפַּ֣ט שָׁל֔וֹם שִׁפְט֖וּ בְּשַֽׁעֲרֵיכֶֽם:

17And let no one think evil of his neighbors in your heart, nor shall you love a false oath-for all these are what I hate, says the Lord.                    יזוְאִ֣ישׁ | אֶת־רָעַ֣ת רֵעֵ֗הוּ אַל־תַּחְשְׁבוּ֙ בִּלְבַבְכֶ֔ם וּשְׁבֻ֥עַת שֶׁ֖קֶר אַל־תֶּֽאֱהָ֑בוּ כִּ֧י אֶת־כָּל־אֵ֛לֶּה אֲשֶׁ֥ר שָׂנֵ֖אתִי נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה:

18And the word of the Lord of Hosts came to me, saying:                     יחוַיְהִ֛י דְּבַר־יְהֹוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת אֵלַ֥י לֵאמֹֽר:

19So said the Lord of Hosts: The fast of the fourth [month], the fast of the fifth [month], the fast of the seventh [month], and the fast of the tenth [month] shall be for the house of Judah for joy and happiness and for happy holidays-but love truth and peace.             יטכֹּֽה־אָמַ֞ר יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֗וֹת צ֣וֹם הָֽרְבִיעִ֡י וְצ֣וֹם הַֽחֲמִישִׁי֩ וְצ֨וֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִ֜י וְצ֣וֹם הָֽעֲשִׂירִ֗י יִֽהְיֶ֚ה לְבֵית־יְהוּדָה֙ לְשָׂשׂ֣וֹן וּלְשִׂמְחָ֔ה וּֽלְמֹֽעֲדִ֖ים טוֹבִ֑ים וְהָֽאֱמֶ֥ת וְהַשָּׁל֖וֹם אֱהָֽבוּ:

20So said the Lord of Hosts: [There will] yet [be a time] that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities shall come.                     ככֹּ֥ה אָמַ֖ר יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֑וֹת עֹד אֲשֶׁר יָבֹ֣אוּ עַמִּ֔ים וְיֹֽשְׁבֵ֖י עָרִ֥ים רַבּֽוֹת:

21And the inhabitants of one shall go to another, saying, "Let us go to pray before the Lord and to entreat the Lord of Hosts. I, too, will go."                      כאוְֽהָלְכ֡וּ יוֹשְׁבֵי֩ אַחַ֨ת אֶל־אַחַ֜ת לֵאמֹ֗ר נֵלְכָ֚ה הָלוֹךְ֙ לְחַלּוֹת֙ אֶת־פְּנֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֔ה וּלְבַקֵּ֖שׁ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֑וֹת אֵֽלְכָ֖ה גַּם־אָֽנִי:

22And many peoples and powerful nations shall come to entreat the Lord of Hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.                   כבוּבָ֨אוּ עַמִּ֚ים רַבִּים֙ וְגוֹיִ֣ם עֲצוּמִ֔ים לְבַקֵּ֛שׁ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת בִּירֽוּשָׁלִָ֑ם וּלְחַלּ֖וֹת אֶת־פְּנֵ֥י יְהֹוָֽה:

23So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."               כגכֹּֽה־אָמַר֘ יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָאוֹת֒ בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵ֔מָּה אֲשֶׁ֚ר יַֽחֲזִ֙יקוּ֙ עֲשָׂרָ֣ה אֲנָשִׁ֔ים מִכֹּ֖ל לְשֹׁנ֣וֹת הַגּוֹיִ֑ם וְֽהֶחֱזִ֡יקוּ בִּכְנַף֩ אִ֨ישׁ יְהוּדִ֜י לֵאמֹ֗ר נֵֽלְכָה֙ עִמָּכֶ֔ם כִּ֥י שָׁמַ֖עְנוּ אֱלֹהִ֥ים עִמָּכֶֽם:

 

The passage interestingly is brought forward as a case to why the second temple was destroyed and it has to do with the “baseless hatred towards their fellow man” according to Rabbinic understanding and Yehuda cites Rashi who commented on the passage in question. It this passage that Yehuda believes it validates Rabbinic Judaism and that he knows not of any group that fits this aside from them.

Essentially, Yehuda says it is talking about a “future messianic time of redemption where God will return to Zion.” Along with the restoration of the temple, the temple might be built, and the remnant of the people will come back to Jerusalem with good done to them by God, the future messianic redemption.

Yehuda then explains the means of bringing about this Messianic redemption by citing verses 16-17 and says it is a messianic prophecy that hasn’t been fulfilled yet, not by Jesus or anyone else by citing 18-19.

The question Yehuda asks is this and he has brought this to other groups, including the Catholics, specifically to Jewish Catholic. 

“What significance does this verse have in your observance of Catholic understanding?”

“Do you observe any of these fasts?” The Rabbinic Jews have kept the fasts, commemorating the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the Rabbinic Jews are the only ones who observe this.

He goes onto 20-23 saying that it has nothing to do with the Catholic Church and has nothing to do with what Jesus did and is reminiscent of what Rabbinic Jews have been doing for the past 2000 years.

Finally, a citation of Rashi’s commentary on verse 17 has been provided here:

 

“And let no one think evil of his neighbors: He warned them concerning hatred without cause, which brought about the destruction of the Second Temple.

            

ואיש את רעת רעהו: הזהירם על שנאת חנם והיא שהחריבה בית המקדש שני:”

Yehuda then says this is the mitzvah that the Jews are to work on during this exile that will bring on the redemption so that his people will be celebrating these days, which currently represent the destruction of the temple but in the future they will celebrate these days because the temple will be rebuilt just as described in Zechariah 8:22.

Isaiah 56:7-8 is also brought to the discussion with respect to a third temple and as a future messianic passage that is not fulfilled by Jesus.

7I will bring them to My holy mount, and I will cause them to rejoice in My house of prayer, their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be acceptable upon My altar, for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.             זוַֽהֲבִֽיאוֹתִ֞ים אֶל־הַ֣ר קָדְשִׁ֗י וְשִׂמַּחְתִּים֙ בְּבֵ֣ית תְּפִלָּתִ֔י עֽוֹלֹתֵיהֶ֧ם וְזִבְחֵיהֶ֛ם לְרָצ֖וֹן עַל־מִזְבְּחִ֑י כִּ֣י בֵיתִ֔י בֵּית־תְּפִלָּ֥ה יִקָּרֵ֖א לְכָל־הָֽעַמִּֽים:

8So says the Lord God, Who gathers in the dispersed of Israel, I will yet gather others to him, together with his gathered ones.                 חנְאֻם֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֔ה מְקַבֵּ֖ץ נִדְחֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל ע֛וֹד אֲקַבֵּ֥ץ עָלָ֖יו לְנִקְבָּצָֽיו:

 

Response

The third temple is a debated topic among Christians and is usually discussed within the realm of eschatology. I have written about the third temple and contend that this is done during the Millennial Reign of Christ (Which I think is literal not spiritual). But first I need to comment on Zechariah 8 before I cross that bridge.

It is strange to me that somehow here that the messianic redemption is somehow to be merited or brought about by the actions of the Jews. It is an unusual interpretation.

The Messianic Era cannot be brought about by implementing what occurs in Zechariah 8:16-23. All these are in the context simply commands given by God rather than a condition used to bring about the Messianic Redemption. I would say it certainly fit into a repentance to God before the coming of the Messiah himself.

Moreover, though the Rabbinic Jews have kept these fasts over the centuries, some Messianic congregations do keep the feasts of the Torah, though this topic is one that this response doesn’t permit me to go into as the subject of whether Christians are to keep the Mosaic law or not is another matter. In short, it isn’t just the Rabbinic Jews alone that observe the feasts. Some Messianic Jews observe the feasts and still did even in the early church although the Gentiles didn’t do so (nor were they required) as found in Romans 14 and Colossians 2, as it was a matter of personal conviction.

This, Rabbinic Jews are not the only ones who have kept the fasts.

While Isaiah 56:7-8 could be interpreted to be Messianic, the third temple usage would not contradict Christian theology. Ezekiel 40-48 speaks of the temple.

This I address in my article “Anti-Christ building the Temple?”https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2014/01/anti-christ-building-temple.html

30:25-38:26

It is with this section that we finally come to rebuttal regarding Yoma 39b. There are parts in between Yehuda’s reading the rebuttal. Let us look at what he wrote.



Watch also the video regarding the in-between points that Yehuda makes.

The Talmud and Rashi’s claim regarding the second temple being destroyed by the Jewish people’s baseless hatred of their fellow men while on the surface has weight, it does have a few problems.

If the New Testament documents were false books, then indeed Rashi and the Talmud’s assertions would be correct.

However, if the New Testament is proved to be true, then its comments were justified, but I say this with some qualifications so as not to give the wrong impression about Jesus or his disciples and their attitudes to the Jewish people. Nor do I write this to be insensitive to the persecution of the Jews which has been horrible and unjust.

First, the “inconsistencies” between the TANAKH and the New Testament can be reconciled with careful thought and consideration, whether it be contradictions, theology etc. Even when Answering Judaism was started ten years ago, there I tried to respond to some of the objections that have been raised, though whether my arguments hold up to scrutiny, the reader can look at see whether that is so.

Furthermore, Deuteronomy 13 I have addressed in the past:

https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2014/01/deuteronomy-13-question-of-vindication.html

https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2014/03/deuteronomy-13-question-of-vindication-2.html

In fact, Yehuda Yisrael was the first one to use Deuteronomy 13 against me and these articles I have written in response to him:

https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2013/10/anointed-ones-and-strange-gods.html

https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2013/10/continuation-of-response-to-limitbreaks.html

A brief summary I will give here however is that Deuteronomy 13 while it makes clear miracles don’t prove a false prophet genuine, the resurrection of Jesus would be an exception.

First, a prophet who was raised from the dead is an example of God confirming the prophet to be true and vindicating his claims.

Muhammad failed this, Joseph Smith failed this and certainly Balaam would have failed this. If Jesus rose from the dead, he ends up being vindicated and having the Father’s stamp of approval. If anyone wants to say it proves nothing, there is no evidence in the TANAKH, even in Deuteronomy 13 that the same false prophet would be raised later to test the people, it simply wouldn’t happen.

At the end of the day, if anyone is contentious about the resurrection of Jesus and say it proves nothing, I think of the parable involving the rich man and Lazarus, as found the Gospel of Luke aptly applies here. The verses in question I have underlined:

Luke 16:19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

If any Jew wants to say that the resurrection of Jesus doesn’t prove him to be true, there is not much I can say. Regardless, it doesn’t impact Jesus.

Two, Jesus did not promote a false God, which is essentially the condemnation as found in Deuteronomy 13. The Trinity also certainly would not be debunked by this passage.

In one of my responses to Yisroel Blumenthal, I have stated the following. Forgive the slight informality in my comments:

First of all, Old Testament people did not say at Sinai "Hello Jesus" when God revealed himself on Sinai, Jesus wasn't given the name Jesus UNTIL the incarnation. It is Jesus' claim and the apostles that he was God in the flesh. If Jesus was not who he claimed to be, Then the Jews were right in concluding that bowing to him in worship would be idolatry. If however, Jesus is God but he is not the Father in heaven and proved that to be the case, then worshipping him is acceptable. We don't bow to the flesh; we bow to the one who took on flesh. He "tabernacled among us" as John 1 puts it.

If Jesus is God as I am convinced he is, then the revelation at Sinai wouldn't present a problem, and I have written on the subject of Deuteronomy 13 if Blumenthal wishes to bring that up:

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/anointed-ones-and-strange-gods.html

The point is in the context of Sinai, the three persons are not required to be seen at once. James White made an excellent point on the Dividing Line on the subject of singular pronouns. He says:

"Every single time, that the context does not demand that we see a particular individual operating differently than the others, would be a reference to the Triune God. So any time where God's general activities, God's general attributes or in reference, can be referred to the entire Godhead acting in unity."

This would cover the Sinai Revelation, considering it was the ONE God acting in that context without having all three persons seen at once. The Godhead was acting in unity in the context of Sinai. Also, James White has stressed that the revelation of the Trinity was revealed in the Incarnation of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It was revealed between the Old and the New Testament. He made this point in his debate with Jalal Abularab.” https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2013/10/examination-of-some-arguments-raised-by.html

As a result, the “angel hunt” as Yehuda refers to the Angel of the Lord proof texts and the famous passage in John 8 where Jesus refers to himself as the Great I AM hold weight in the matter. It is not circular reasoning.

Jesus would only be guilty of baseless hatred if he turned out to be a fraud and only in that would the Jews have ample reason to put him to death according to the Torah.

As for other specific passages highlighted by Yehuda, we look at the context of John 8:44 as the first.

39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

In the passage, The Jews who were speaking to Jesus are Jews who believed in him, supposedly. However, as Jesus speaks, he reveals their heart's attitude towards him, once again, this is referring to specific Jews in a given context, he is not saying ALL Jews are of the devil, he is condemning a particular group of Jews. They were shocked by his claims and couldn't stand what he had said about them. They were superficially believing in Jesus, not really submitting to him. This is the one statement in all the Gospels that is commonly quoted by the Counter-Missionaries to attack the NT and accuse it of Jew Hatred.

As made clear in the video to Jewish Catholic, Yehuda does not point to these passages as evidence of antisemitism but rather he points to this passage and others as evidence of Jesus and Paul having baseless hatred for their fellow Jews, which to me is very unlikely in light Jesus’ various attitudes to his people in addition to Paul’s overall comments.

Jesus’ words in John 8 sound harsh, but certainly do not constitute baseless hatred, especially in his exchange with the Samaritan woman in the same Gospel in chapter 4:

John 4:16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

Jesus speaks of a day when it will not matter where you come from, that true worshippers of the Father will come from many ethnic backgrounds, highlighting especially the point that salvation is of the Jewish people, without them, no salvation for the Gentiles.

In Matthew 23, though Jesus pronounced woes specifically on the Pharisees, who should have known better, he says following regarding Jerusalem:

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

As for Paul, his comments in 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 only applied to the Jews who called for Jesus to be put to death.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God constantly[d] for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men[e] but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers. 14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,[f] 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last![g]

The Jews that “oppose all mankind” that Paul refers to here are a specific group of Jews that hindered his efforts in bringing the Gospel to the Gentile nations, though the misuse of this passage by so called Christians as blood libel was certainly an abominable action and not something Paul would have blessed. The misuse of the passage was an unjust and cruel treatment of the Jews that Jesus himself would abominate, considering what I have already quoted above from Matthew 23.

As to whether Paul should thank the Jews (the ones responsible not all.) for putting Jesus to death. Absolutely not. That is like asking should we thank Joseph’s brothers for selling their brother to the Ismaelites who in turn sold him into Egypt and to cover up their deed, the brothers lied to Jacob because eventually it led to the salvation of the Jews in Egypt from famine. Should we thank the brothers of Joseph for that? Of course not. No, as Joseph said to his brothers:

Genesis 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[b] should be kept alive, as they are today. 21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

In fact, when on the cross, what did Jesus say regarding his executioners? 

Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they seized one Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, and laid on him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him. 28 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’ 31 For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

32 Two others, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with him. 33 And when they came to the place that is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left. 34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”[b] And they cast lots to divide his garments. 35 And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!” 36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine 37 and saying, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!” 38 There was also an inscription over him,[c] “This is the King of the Jews.”

Despite the circumstances, Jesus’ death was planned but nevertheless, even if what was done to him by the people was murder.

Sam Shamoun also wrote the following regarding Jesus saying “Father, forgive them.”

To put it simply, Jesus' use of the imperative shows that he was actually demanding that the Father forgive the individuals responsible for dividing up his clothing. He wasn't simply making an entreaty. We need to point out that by saying that Christ commanded his Father to perform a specific function, we are not implying that there is competition within the Godhead. Rather, we are simply highlighting the point that the Lord Jesus has the authority to make demands since he is equal to the Father in essence and is the object of the Father's infinite and eternal love. Yet, these demands are not done out of a dictatorial spirit, but out of a spirit of mutual love and the assurance that whatever Christ asks for he shall definitely receive:

"When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. ‘Lord,’ Martha said to Jesus, ‘if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.’" John 11:20-22

"So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, ‘Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.’" John 11:41-42

"I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. Come now; let us leave." John 14:30-31

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love." John 15:9-10

"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world." John 17:24

Now in order to establish the case that the Lord Jesus wasn't simply asking or encouraging the Father to forgive them, but making a demand based on his relationship to the Father as the divine Son, we need to read all that Luke has to say about the person and work of Christ. Once this is done, it becomes quite evident that Jesus is indeed the Sovereign Lord of all creation, the Father's eternally beloved Son, and because of this he is able to make certain demands of the Father.

This is just a small fraction from Shamoun’s article but the comment here is striking. It certainly showcases the point that Jesus did not have a “baseless hatred” of even those who opposed them.

https://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/forgivenness.htm

Peter also says to the Jewish people the following in Acts 3:

11 While he clung to Peter and John, all the people, utterly astounded, ran together to them in the portico called Solomon's. 12 And when Peter saw it he addressed the people: “Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk? 13 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant[b] Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. 14 But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. 16 And his name—by faith in his name—has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus[c] has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.

17 “And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

Although the Jewish people involved with killing Jesus along with the Romans, in terms of what they did, Peter tells them that this was done in ignorance, they didn’t realise that their Messiah was the one they had killed but nevertheless, forgiveness has been extended to them if they would simply turn to Jesus in repentance and faith. Peter certainly doesn’t speak to his people with malice, instead he understands why they did what they did, while not excusing it.

Moreover, Paul himself also said the following regarding his people in Romans 9:

9 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,[a] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Like Jesus, Paul wept over his own people and despite the rejection of Jesus, the Jews have not been cast away forever. This is quite different from someone having baseless hatred of his own people. On the contrary, it shows great love that he would speak this way of his people.

The supposed confusion over Jews among the Gentiles have arisen over the years especially from replacement theology damaging the church and it’s gradual moving away from the Jewish roots to its own destruction. Peter even notes that there were people in his day distorting Paul’s letters and even the TANAKH itself (2 Peter 3:16.)

It is not a case of pretending that Jesus and the apostles were not guilty of baseless hatred, the question is where they guilty of it to begin with? The answer is no and even if Jesus turned out to be false, it would not justify the dehumanisation of the Jewish people, whether it be by the church or those outside the church.

Let us turn quickly to Revelation 2:

8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander[a] of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

I will not sugarcoat the passage. The Jews mentioned here are specifically ones that have persecuted the church in Smyrna with Jesus commending the church and strengthening it.

Certainly Revelation 2:9 has been misused and abused by the church over the years but considering the fact some churches were made of Jew and Gentile congregations (Romans 10 and Galatians 3), I think misusing the passage towards someone for simply existing as a Jew is not fair and is baseless and insensitive.

Both Jews and Gentiles according to the New Testament must turn to Jesus to be saved.

As Yehuda has argued, he is not arguing whether a passage has anti-semitism or not, but he is arguing about whether the apostles and Jesus had a baseless hatred towards their people and as I have said that is not the case. If Jesus is who he says he is, then I can say he and his apostles are innocent of the charge of baseless hatred towards their fellow Jews.

As for the comment of the prophets from Paul. He does not mean all Jews are contrary to mankind as mentioned earlier, only a group of them and the point about the prophets being killed was referring to the stiff-necked nature of the Jewish people and the refusal to hear the voice of God when calling them to repentance (except the remnant who harkened to him.) 

In this day, The Christian church is guilty of being stiff necked, especially how impotent it has become in the West and Paul warns if God does not spare the natural branches, he will not spare the ones grafted in (Romans 11:27) and Peter says that judgement begins in the house of God (1 Peter 4:17)

This does not justify the cruelty of the church towards the Jewish people in the past. Such an irrational and immoral treatment of the Jewish people is not supported by the writings of the New Testament. 

39:27-42:35

Hosea 3 I think I have covered and in fairness, responding to the actual objection rather than running to the rabbis is a fair request. But as for Malachi 3, let us move on and see what is being said.

The passage according to Yehuda has not been fulfilled yet and has not been fulfilled by Jesus. When the third temple is established, then the Levites will be purified, refined as gold and silver with the offerings once again shall be pleasant to the Lord in former years. This is mentioned at the end of the prayer services and the Rabbinic Jews have a longing for the restoration of the temple in the Messianic era.

Here is a section from Contra Blumenthal I wrote a decade ago:

"Malachi 3:1-4

"3 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years."

The NT interprets the first verse as a reference to John the Baptist paving the way for Yeshua or Jesus. As for the subject of the Levites being refined, John the Baptist cleanses the Levites by baptising them in the river Jordan, thus getting them ready for the Kingdom of Heaven. The sacrifices of the Levites afterwards are also pleasing to God as a result of this. In the Millennial Reign of Christ when the Temple stands once more in Jerusalem, the offerings given within the context of Malachi will pleasing to the LORD as in the former times of Judah. While the NT makes it clear that the Law is fulfilled in Christ, there isn't anything to suggest that the temple, even temporarily, will not be re-established in the end of days for a holy purpose."” 

https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2014/03/contra-blumenthal-examination-of-contra.html

42:43-45:10

31Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.                      לאלֹ֣א כַבְּרִ֗ית אֲשֶׁ֚ר כָּרַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־אֲבוֹתָ֔ם בְּיוֹם֙ הֶֽחֱזִיקִ֣י בְיָדָ֔ם לְהֽוֹצִיאָ֖ם מֵאֶ֖רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲשֶׁר־הֵ֜מָּה הֵפֵ֣רוּ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֗י וְאָֽנֹכִ֛י בָּעַ֥לְתִּי בָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה:

32For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.            לבכִּ֣י זֹ֣את הַבְּרִ֡ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶכְרֹת֩ אֶת־בֵּ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אַֽחֲרֵ֨י הַיָּמִ֚ים הָהֵם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה נָתַ֚תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם אֶכְתֳּבֶ֑נָּה וְהָיִ֚יתִי לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְהֵ֖מָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִ֥י לְעָֽם:

33And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.                לגוְלֹ֧א יְלַמְּד֣וּ ע֗וֹד אִ֣ישׁ אֶת־רֵעֵ֜הוּ וְאִ֚ישׁ אֶת־אָחִיו֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר דְּע֖וּ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֑ה כִּֽי־כוּלָּם֩ יֵֽדְע֨וּ אוֹתִ֜י לְמִקְּטַנָּ֚ם וְעַד־גְּדוֹלָם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּ֚י אֶסְלַח֙ לַֽעֲו‍ֹנָ֔ם וּלְחַטָּאתָ֖ם לֹ֥א אֶזְכָּר־עֽוֹד:

34So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name.                   לדכֹּ֣ה | אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֗ה נֹתֵ֥ן שֶׁ֙מֶשׁ֙ לְא֣וֹר יוֹמָ֔ם חֻקֹּ֛ת יָרֵ֥חַ וְכֽוֹכָבִ֖ים לְא֣וֹר לָ֑יְלָה רֹגַ֚ע הַיָּם֙ וַיֶּֽהֱמ֣וּ גַלָּ֔יו יְהֹוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת שְׁמֽוֹ:

Jeremiah 31:33-34 is brought up to demonstrate that the New Covenant has not been made. Because of these passages, there is no need to teach each other the law as God will inscribe it on the hearts of the Jews, which is articulated in Deuteronomy 30 when it says after the final exile when God regathers Israel in the future messianic age, then God will put this covenant on their hearts and the hearts of their offspring.

It is described as contrary to the Mosaic covenant because that covenant needs to be taught to the Jewish children but the new covenant, the Jews will not have to teach their children or their neighbour.

Yehuda points to the fact the video by Jewish Catholic exists where he is teaching about “his supposed new covenant.” Proves the new covenant was not made, otherwise he as a Jew would not have to teach other Jews, as he is trying to teach Yehuda that the new covenant as a thing. It would not have to be taught as the Jews would all know Ha Shem from the least of them to the greatest. Yehuda says there is no way around that and it’s just a testament to the fact that Jesus did not fulfil the New Covenant, because Jewish Catholic has a YouTube channel to teach Jews and others to know God and that the New Covenant says this will not be happening in the future messianic era when the New Covenant is enacted.

Response

In what way will this happen? Is this gradual or instantaneous? I contend it is not the latter. The people due to the merits of the Messiah, come to know the God of Israel whether they be Jew or Gentile alike, but the covenant would be made with the Jews (The Gentiles being grafted in after the resurrection.) 

Also, in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a gradual process of the least to the greatest person knowing God is gradual, it is not something that will happen immediately and is happening over all the earth with the gospel coming to all nations and bringing people into the knowledge of the God of Israel and submitting to him and turning from idols thanks to Jesus. Hence as the Lord says, they will all know me from the least of them to the greatest. People will come to know the God of Israel but there still must be instruction on how to live for him. 

Regardless of one’s personal feelings towards the New Testament and whether you take it as divinely inspired or not, the writers didn’t conceive of the objection raised by Yehuda when looking at Jeremiah 31:31-34 as the passage would not be a refutation of their use. 

The New Testament also assumes that the person reading it should be knowledgeable or at least familiar with a passage in the TANAKH and its context so their readers at the time they were written so that they could go back to the TANAKH to see if the points hold up to scrutiny.

Matthew Henry says the following in his commentary:

31:27-34 The people of God shall become numerous and prosperous. In Heb 8:8,9, this place is quoted as the sum of the covenant of grace made with believers in Jesus Christ. Not, I will give them a new law; for Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it; but the law shall be written in their hearts by the finger of the Spirit, as formerly written in the tables of stone. The Lord will, by his grace, make his people willing people in the day of his power. All shall know the Lord; all shall be welcome to the knowledge of God, and shall have the means of that knowledge. There shall be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, at the time the gospel is published. No man shall finally perish, but for his own sins; none, who is willing to accept of Christ's salvation.

Matthew Poole also makes a point worth keeping in mind:

This must not be so interpreted as if under the gospel there should be no more need of ministerial teaching, for Christ himself sent out his apostles to preach; nor yet as if there should be no more need of brotherly teachings, by instruction or conception; the contrary is commanded, Colossians 3:16. It is only an expression signifying the increase of knowledge, and of the fear of the Lord, that should be after the pouring out of the Spirit: we have such expressions 1Jo 2:27. The learned author of our English Annotations thinks this phrase signifies, that under the gospel there should be a greater measure of means of knowledge, and of knowledge got by that means, and of clearness of understanding in persons, or ability to conceive things revealed, and a greater number of persons that should be enlightened with the saving knowledge of God. Others say, that by knowing the Lord is to be understood the first knowledge of God; Christians should not need be taught the first rudiments: but the apostle speaks otherwise, Hebrews 5:12. Others by knowledge understand the fear of the Lord. God saith, they should all know him; but it must not be understood of the same degree and measure, but in a degree of sufficiency for the duties which God expected from them upon their notion and apprehension of God. God makes the root of all this grace to be the free pardon and remission of their sins.

Other commentaries I shall link to for reading at your leisure: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/jeremiah/31-34.htm

The New Covenant doesn’t remove teaching the ways of God to the people and they didn’t assume that teaching their people to serve God would be rendered obsolete by the New Covenant. If there is a scenario where teaching others to know the LORD has finished, this will not happen until the end of days.

I have also commented on Deuteronomy 30 here: https://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2014/04/comments-on-deuteronomy-301-14.html

I’ll restate a chunk of the points I made here:

"30 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

This is seen as a Messianic passage by the some of the counter-missionaries.

To the best of my knowledge, I was informed that Deuteronomy 30 in question speaks of the circumcision of the heart, much like Jeremiah and takes place after the exile.

Yisroel Blumenthal in the Elephant and the Suit articulates what Deuteronomy 30:1-10 refers to with respect to the New Covenant. Here is part of what he said:

"This passage in Deuteronomy clearly teaches that Israel’s repentance is the precursor of the Messianic age, this passage teaches that repentance is efficacious while Israel is still in exile, and this passage clearly teaches that the Law of Moses, as Moses taught it, is going to be observed in the Messianic era. Each of these issues is central to the debate between Judaism and Christianity." (Yisroel Blumenthal: http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/the-elephant-and-the-suit/) My apologies if I misunderstood your points Rabbi Blumenthal.

Yehuda Yisrael also believes Ezekiel 36 refers to the New Covenant in the following video he made in response to Michael Brown (Dr Michael Brown is jesus the Jewish Messiah? Rebuttal!). This is relevant because it ties in with the timing of the New Covenant inauguration and connects back to the inauguration in Deuteronomy 30.

I also later enquired as to what Yehuda's position was about Deuteronomy 30 and Ezekiel 36 on the video in the comments. This is what was said a decade ago:

bobo577

So I get clarification Yehuda, Are you saying that Deuteronomy 30 and Ezekiel 36 refer to the Messianic era? I remember you and I spoke on this with each other on Paltalk about that briefly and you mentioned when the circumcision would take place.

Yehuda Yisrael

Yes they refer to the Messianic Era. Neither passage says anything about "the circumcision of the heart" aka the New Covenant, occurring before the ingathering of the exiles. This flies in the face of Dr. Brown's false assertion that the New Covenant/the Messiah had to be made before the destruction of the of the Holy Temple. Clearly, it's the other way around!

bobo577

+Yehuda Yisrael I see, thanks for the clarification.

There is also Christian exegesis that Deuteronomy 30 does refer to the New Covenant, with obvious differences to the points made by Rabbinic Jews. Such an example can be found in Adam Clarke's own commentary on this text:

"Verse 6

God will circumcise thine heart - This promise remains yet to be fulfilled. Their heart, as a people, has never yet been circumcised; nor have the various promises in this chapter been ever yet fulfilled. There remaineth, therefore, a rest for this people of God. Now, as the law, properly speaking, made no provision for the circumcision of the heart, which implies the remission of sins, and purification of the soul from all unrighteousness; and as circumcision itself was only a sign of spiritual good, consequently the promise here refers to the days of the Messiah, and to this all the prophets and all the apostles give witness: “for circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter,” Romans 2:29; and the genuine followers of God are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands - by the circumcision of Christ,” Colossians 2:11, Colossians 2:12. Hence we see these promises cannot be fulfilled to the Jews but in their embracing the Gospel of Christ. To look, therefore, for their restoration is idle and nugatory, while their obstinacy and unbelief remain." (http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/view.cgi?book=de&chapter=030)

There are other points he makes on the passage, but I leave you guys to look at his words and judge them, as you are to judge mine.

My point regarding Deuteronomy 30, what is it? There are two exiles which ended with the ingathering of the people themselves, which exile does this New Covenant take place before or after? The return before the first exile after Solomon's apostasy, or the second exile from Jerusalem in AD70? The circumcision of the heart and the New Covenant was not instigated immediately after the first exile had taken place when the Jews returned to the land of Israel but certainly, they were gathered in the Land before the destruction of the second temple and the second exile had taken place some 40 years after the time of Jesus.

Ezekiel 36 mentions the following:

"24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!"

The Jews were in Babylon at this point after being banished from the Land of Israel and their restoration is promised to them, not because of anything they have done, but to have YHWH show his glory to the nations. Sure enough the Jews themselves were brought back to the Land and were allowed to dwell there and build the temple under Zerubabbel's direction, when he was anointed by God to build it.

Now the question is, when did the circumcision of the heart take place? Well in the mid-30s of the first century, The Lord's Supper is the first step, then along comes Jesus' atonement and then there is the taking out the heart of stone and being given a heart of flesh as found in Jeremiah 31:31-34. 

I have also written about what will transpire in the Messianic era with respect to the New Testament and what will happen in the end times. This can be found in Contra Blumenthal here: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/contra-blumenthal-examination-of-contra.html

Read the section "Role of the Temple in the Messianic era" where I articulate my position.

I would encourage you to listen and read carefully and see if any of the arguments presented stand up to scrutiny.

Answering Judaism. 

11th of July 2024 Addendum: I misspelt Yehuda’s last name. My apologies.

30th of July 2024. There was an oversight on my part that I missed. It was pointed out to me at 26:00 that the feasts mentioned refer to The Three Weeks, read here for more information: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/947558/jewish/What-Are-the-Three-Weeks.htm

Yehuda made the fuller point to me:

"Read this yesterday. Thanks for taking the time. This part is probably not what you were expecting me to respond to, but I feel it needs to be addressed. You wrote, "Moreover, though the Rabbinic Jews have kept these fasts over the centuries, some Messianic congregations do keep the feasts of the Torah, though this topic is one that this response doesn’t permit me to go into as the subject of whether Christians are to keep the Mosaic law or not is another matter. In short, it isn’t just the Rabbinic Jews alone that observe the feasts. Some Messianic Jews observe the feasts and still did even in the early church although the Gentiles didn’t do so (nor were they required) as found in Romans 14 and Colossians 2, as it was a matter of personal conviction."

You are missing the point here. Zechariah 8:19 isn't speaking about "feasts of the Torah". It's speaking about fasts that only Rabbinic Jews have kept for the past 2000 years of exile. Of course, you wouldn't know this if you're a christian, but we are in a period of time now called "The Three Weeks". This is the mourning period of time in between "the fast of the fourth" (aka the fast of Tammuz) and "the fast of the fifth" (aka Tisha B'Av/The saddest day on the Jewish calendar).  

The fasts of the 5th and the 7th are mentioned in Zechariah 7, but the fasts of the 4th and the 10th are really only explicitly mentioned in Zechariah 8:19 along with the fasts of the 5th and the 7th months. My point is that Christians have absolutely no tradition of observing these fasts which are clearly linked to the future Messianic redemption, as it says in the future Messianic redemption, instead of fasting on these days, we will be celebrating these days as festivals of joy. Why? Because the Temple will be standing again! 

Tisha B'Av aka the fast of the fifth is the saddest day on the Jewish calendar because it is when the Holy Temple was destroyed. Since most christians couldn't care less about this because "Jesus is their temple" or whatever they claim, it makes no sense to apply this verse or any of the other verses to the church, aside from the gentile nations who will come to the Jews saying "We have heard that G-d is with you" in Zechariah 8:23...The point being that Zechariah 8:19 is clearly referring to Rabbinic Jews who have continued to keep these fasts and mourn the destruction of the Temple throughout the past 2000 years of exile and not Christians or Jews who ignore these Temple fasts to such a degree that they can't even distinguish them from feasts in the Torah, such as yourself. Do you understand my point now?"