This article is going back to look at Revelation 1:4, which wasn't addressed or looked at in an article in response to QuinQue Viae.
Look at the other articles before looking at this paper:
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/shoehorning-roman-doctrines-into.html
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/shoehorning-roman-doctrines-into.html
Specifically I want to look at Revelation 1 and see what it says but first let's get a recap on what QuinQue Viae said:
"But what of the Sacred Scripture? We also have an abundance of evidence from therein. Jeremiah and Onias pray to God on behalf of Israel. (2 Macc 15) Tobit chapter 12 tells of the 7 great Angels who pray to Yahweh on behalf of the Men on earth. Those same 7 Angels give grace and intercede on our behalf according to Revelation 1:4. Revelation 5 speaks of the elders delivering the prayers of the saints up to God himself. In Jeremiah 15:1 God speaks of the possibility of Moses and Samuel standing before him and interceding on Israel's behalf, but God himself even says this is not good enough, presupposing a precedent already set (as proven via Scriptures & Tradition) of saintly intercession. There is simply no escaping the evidence for Bobo and he grasps at desperate arguments to justify his unbiblical presuppositions. For I go off of the greatest Protestant scholars when I affirm the following:"
Take a look at article 2 specifically to get up to speed on my response to his points and to repost one particular, namely a video by Rabbi Tovia Singer on why Jews go to the grave of their forefathers or great saintly men. This video by him should clarify some misunderstandings on the issue:
Rabbi Tovia Singer discusses the Jewish tradition of praying at a gravesite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUEuj0p6eUI
Here's Revelation 1:
"Prologue
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
Greeting to the Seven Churches
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail[b] on account of him. Even so. Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”"
I don't really have much to say and I am not sure where the intercession is present in the text itself. The angels interceding for us isn't much of a problem. It doesn't have to do with interceding for the dead though, either those who are with Christ already in Heaven or with those in Sheol who died in unbelief.
Answering Judaism.
Sunday, 15 October 2017
Thursday, 12 October 2017
Who did God send where? A look at the book of Acts and other texts
Some few days ago, Shadid Lewis was pointing out certain contradictions in the scripture so let's take a look at them.
If Jesus had been sent to the Gentiles, why are they upset if all of them could preach to the Gentiles in Acts 11. Why didn't Peter just mention the Great Commission? (I think that was his objection).
The Pharisees that Peter was going to did not need to know the exact words of the Great Commission.
Peter doesn't mention The Great Commission because he is being asked a specific question.
"11 Now the apostles and the brothers[a] who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party[b] criticized him, saying, 3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” 4 But Peter began and explained it to them in order: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me. 6 Looking at it closely, I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘By no means, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered a second time from heaven, ‘What God has made clean, do not call common.’ 10 This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven. 11 And behold, at that very moment three men arrived at the house in which we were, sent to me from Caesarea. 12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. 13 And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”"
The problem was not going to the Gentiles, the actual problem was that the circumcised party were upset that the Gentiles had not been circumcised and received everything that with it as necessary to becoming Christians (Information that Anthony Rogers brought to my attention when I posed the question on my personal Facebook).
To add to this, The Gentiles through faith in the Messiah now have equal access to God without having to become Jews and that they are not lesser than Jews.
Is the phrase by my mouth limiting it by Peter's mouth only and that no one else can speak it?
No. Let's read:
"Acts 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”"
The phrase "By my mouth" isn't limiting Peter to being the only one who can proclaim to the Gentiles and absolutely no one else, that is a gross abuse of the text and is refuted by the following later in Luke's letter:
"12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant[b] of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”"
Not only were signs and wonders were done by Barnabas and Paul but the Gentiles would have also listened to them and by no means does Peter raise any objections and say "By my mouth Paul the Gentiles here the message of the Gospel, not yours". The Acts 15 Council are deciding which laws Gentiles are bound to keep as more of them were being admitted into the growing church. Peter cannot be possibly saying that he alone is the one to speak to the Gentiles, All the disciples had that right in light of the Great Commission. Jesus said to his disciples ""
Paul claims he was sent to the Gentiles and Peter was to the Jews and Peter says he was to go to the Gentiles. Was there a conflict between Peter and Paul on who went to go to the Gentiles?
Depending on the circumstances, Both were sent to the Jews and the Gentiles. I was admittedly too rigid in what I said in saying that Paul went to the Gentiles and Peter went to the Jews, I was wrong about that. A careful reading shows that the apostles as directed by the Holy Spirit would either direct their attention to Jews or Gentiles based on the context.
Peter in his own letters is speaking to Jewish believers whereas Paul spoke to mixed to Gentile congregations but as was his habit, he would go to the synagogue first and then to the Gentiles afterwards, although some of the synagogues would contain Gentile hearers as well, namely ones similar to Cornelius who believed in the God of Israel but had not converted to Judaism yet. Acts 17 shows us this particular custom of Paul's evangelism and life: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17
There was also a case in Acts 18 where Paul washed his hands of a group of Jews because of the way he was treated:
"18 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”
7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized."
This is consistent with what Jesus said about wiping the dust of your feet when they refuse to receive the Gospel:
"Matthew 10:1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."
While this was before the Great Commission, where Jesus would send his disciples out among the Gentiles, there is an important point here. If someone consistently refuses you or will not listen to the words of the Gospel, you leave, wipe the dust of your feet and go elsewhere to someone who will listen.
Back to the letters of the New Testament, we see who the writers are addressing at the very start of their letters.
Here are the two openings to Peter's letters:
"1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you."
"1 Simeon[a] Peter, a servant[b] and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord."
See James' first line in his letter
"1 James, a servant[a] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
Greetings."
John in his letters, 2 and 3 John addresses different individuals too.
2 John: "1 The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2 because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:
3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love."
3 John "1 The elder to the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth.
2 Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul. 3 For I rejoiced greatly when the brothers[a] came and testified to your truth, as indeed you are walking in the truth. 4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth."
Paul in his letters would either address an individual (Titus, 1 and 2 Timothy and Philemon) or address various churches (Galatians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Romans and some debate Hebrews).
It is also worth noting in Galatians 2 that at one stage, Paul was sent to the Gentiles, whereas Peter was to go the Jews.
"2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do."
The context doesn't mean they couldn't address the opposite groups as we observe that Paul often went to the Jews first then to the Gentiles. But here we have a period of time where Paul would speak to mostly Gentiles, leaving the Jews to the Apostles. Does this mean that Paul, Peter, James and John never addressed others outside of a specific group? No, they can and could address anyone if the Lord led them to do it.
Answering Judaism.
If Jesus had been sent to the Gentiles, why are they upset if all of them could preach to the Gentiles in Acts 11. Why didn't Peter just mention the Great Commission? (I think that was his objection).
The Pharisees that Peter was going to did not need to know the exact words of the Great Commission.
Peter doesn't mention The Great Commission because he is being asked a specific question.
"11 Now the apostles and the brothers[a] who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party[b] criticized him, saying, 3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” 4 But Peter began and explained it to them in order: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me. 6 Looking at it closely, I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘By no means, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered a second time from heaven, ‘What God has made clean, do not call common.’ 10 This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven. 11 And behold, at that very moment three men arrived at the house in which we were, sent to me from Caesarea. 12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. 13 And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”"
The problem was not going to the Gentiles, the actual problem was that the circumcised party were upset that the Gentiles had not been circumcised and received everything that with it as necessary to becoming Christians (Information that Anthony Rogers brought to my attention when I posed the question on my personal Facebook).
To add to this, The Gentiles through faith in the Messiah now have equal access to God without having to become Jews and that they are not lesser than Jews.
Is the phrase by my mouth limiting it by Peter's mouth only and that no one else can speak it?
No. Let's read:
"Acts 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”"
The phrase "By my mouth" isn't limiting Peter to being the only one who can proclaim to the Gentiles and absolutely no one else, that is a gross abuse of the text and is refuted by the following later in Luke's letter:
"12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant[b] of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”"
Not only were signs and wonders were done by Barnabas and Paul but the Gentiles would have also listened to them and by no means does Peter raise any objections and say "By my mouth Paul the Gentiles here the message of the Gospel, not yours". The Acts 15 Council are deciding which laws Gentiles are bound to keep as more of them were being admitted into the growing church. Peter cannot be possibly saying that he alone is the one to speak to the Gentiles, All the disciples had that right in light of the Great Commission. Jesus said to his disciples ""
Paul claims he was sent to the Gentiles and Peter was to the Jews and Peter says he was to go to the Gentiles. Was there a conflict between Peter and Paul on who went to go to the Gentiles?
Peter in his own letters is speaking to Jewish believers whereas Paul spoke to mixed to Gentile congregations but as was his habit, he would go to the synagogue first and then to the Gentiles afterwards, although some of the synagogues would contain Gentile hearers as well, namely ones similar to Cornelius who believed in the God of Israel but had not converted to Judaism yet. Acts 17 shows us this particular custom of Paul's evangelism and life: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17
There was also a case in Acts 18 where Paul washed his hands of a group of Jews because of the way he was treated:
"18 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”
7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized."
This is consistent with what Jesus said about wiping the dust of your feet when they refuse to receive the Gospel:
"Matthew 10:1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."
While this was before the Great Commission, where Jesus would send his disciples out among the Gentiles, there is an important point here. If someone consistently refuses you or will not listen to the words of the Gospel, you leave, wipe the dust of your feet and go elsewhere to someone who will listen.
Back to the letters of the New Testament, we see who the writers are addressing at the very start of their letters.
Here are the two openings to Peter's letters:
"1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you."
"1 Simeon[a] Peter, a servant[b] and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord."
See James' first line in his letter
"1 James, a servant[a] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
Greetings."
John in his letters, 2 and 3 John addresses different individuals too.
2 John: "1 The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2 because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:
3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love."
3 John "1 The elder to the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth.
2 Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul. 3 For I rejoiced greatly when the brothers[a] came and testified to your truth, as indeed you are walking in the truth. 4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth."
Paul in his letters would either address an individual (Titus, 1 and 2 Timothy and Philemon) or address various churches (Galatians, Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Romans and some debate Hebrews).
It is also worth noting in Galatians 2 that at one stage, Paul was sent to the Gentiles, whereas Peter was to go the Jews.
"2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do."
The context doesn't mean they couldn't address the opposite groups as we observe that Paul often went to the Jews first then to the Gentiles. But here we have a period of time where Paul would speak to mostly Gentiles, leaving the Jews to the Apostles. Does this mean that Paul, Peter, James and John never addressed others outside of a specific group? No, they can and could address anyone if the Lord led them to do it.
Answering Judaism.
Tuesday, 10 October 2017
Comments on Loving Rebuke vs. Hateful Invective
http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/10/30/loving-rebuke-vs-hateful-invective-by-jim/
"Derek,
I am unsure of the purpose for your comment. I would like to say this, however, that it is dangerous for us as non-Jews (which I assume you are, like myself) to judge Israel harshly. It is true that throughout Tanach, the prophets reprimand Israel. But it is also clear that this is for their betterment, not for outsiders to forge an opinion about Jewish sinfulness. In fact, when a non-Jew is given a prophecy regarding Israel, Balaam, he is not given a message regarding Israel’s sins. Instead he speaks like this: “He [God] observed no falsehood in Jacob, and saw no vexation in Israel. Hashem, his God, is with him, and the shout of the King is with him” (Numbers 23:21)."
Judging the Jewish people as a whole based on their history isn't a good idea, there have been faithful remnants of Jews over the centuries. It is true that the prophets did reprimand the people and call them to repentance. Jeremiah even says comforting things to Israel even in the midst of Israel while bringing the message of God's judgement (Jim mentions comfort and praise later on):
"Jeremiah 29:10 “For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare[b] and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. 13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile."
Read here for the context: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+29
"I consider it like this: at times, I must correct my children. And someone from the outside, hearing me reprimand one of them might come to the conclusion that my children are rather ill behaved. But it is not so. Both of my daughters are quite wonderful. They are really developing into quite kind-hearted people, but like all children, they have their moments. A stranger, hearing me correct one or both of them, might assume the opposite. But he would be wrong. And if I am telling someone about my children, I do not speak of their mistakes; I tell them how great my children are and how much I love them."
I won't dive into the issue of original sin as that is an issue for another time but putting that aside, there isn't much to disagree with. There are cases in the TANAKH when the Gentiles ask "What happened to this place?", they would say "Israel disobeyed God and thus destruction happened" (I'm paraphrasing of course). First impressions do count and that is important.
"Now sometimes with non-Jews, they read Tanach, and they see the reprimands of God and they take it as a sign that the Jews are in some way bad. They are mistaken. Not only does he reprimand them; he tells them of his great love for them. And that is ignored. When he gives a message regarding Israel to non-Jews, he tells them how good Israel is, just like I would talk about my children."
The Jews' history with idolatry in the TANAKH hasn't done their testimony favors lets say (Don't misunderstand me, Christians are guilty of damaging their testimony as well also throughout the centuries, what happened to the Jews can happen to Christians as well). That being said, God's love for the Jews is not to be ignored as Jim rightly points out. Even in Leviticus 26:40-46 despite the Jews' disobedience and being in the land of their enemies, God will not reject them.
"I think we cannot ignore one other thing. The prophets did give over some difficult words to Israel. But what did He have to say to the other nations? Many of those words are even harder. And what is often overlooked is that God gives correction to Israel, but He also gives words of comfort and promise.
Jim"
Correct, the things said to the Gentile nations around Israel were worse. While Israel were promised restoration to their land and reconciliation to God, the other nations not so. Where are Edom, Moab, Ammon and the other semitic nations that surrounded Israel, all of them are gone because of what they did to Israel and have either assimilated into other cultures or have been wiped out, the latter being the most likely. God does use other nations to discipline his people but will punish the other nations if they become too harsh or cruel.
I'll leave it at that.
Answering Judaism.
"Derek,
I am unsure of the purpose for your comment. I would like to say this, however, that it is dangerous for us as non-Jews (which I assume you are, like myself) to judge Israel harshly. It is true that throughout Tanach, the prophets reprimand Israel. But it is also clear that this is for their betterment, not for outsiders to forge an opinion about Jewish sinfulness. In fact, when a non-Jew is given a prophecy regarding Israel, Balaam, he is not given a message regarding Israel’s sins. Instead he speaks like this: “He [God] observed no falsehood in Jacob, and saw no vexation in Israel. Hashem, his God, is with him, and the shout of the King is with him” (Numbers 23:21)."
Judging the Jewish people as a whole based on their history isn't a good idea, there have been faithful remnants of Jews over the centuries. It is true that the prophets did reprimand the people and call them to repentance. Jeremiah even says comforting things to Israel even in the midst of Israel while bringing the message of God's judgement (Jim mentions comfort and praise later on):
"Jeremiah 29:10 “For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare[b] and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. 13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile."
Read here for the context: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+29
"I consider it like this: at times, I must correct my children. And someone from the outside, hearing me reprimand one of them might come to the conclusion that my children are rather ill behaved. But it is not so. Both of my daughters are quite wonderful. They are really developing into quite kind-hearted people, but like all children, they have their moments. A stranger, hearing me correct one or both of them, might assume the opposite. But he would be wrong. And if I am telling someone about my children, I do not speak of their mistakes; I tell them how great my children are and how much I love them."
I won't dive into the issue of original sin as that is an issue for another time but putting that aside, there isn't much to disagree with. There are cases in the TANAKH when the Gentiles ask "What happened to this place?", they would say "Israel disobeyed God and thus destruction happened" (I'm paraphrasing of course). First impressions do count and that is important.
"Now sometimes with non-Jews, they read Tanach, and they see the reprimands of God and they take it as a sign that the Jews are in some way bad. They are mistaken. Not only does he reprimand them; he tells them of his great love for them. And that is ignored. When he gives a message regarding Israel to non-Jews, he tells them how good Israel is, just like I would talk about my children."
The Jews' history with idolatry in the TANAKH hasn't done their testimony favors lets say (Don't misunderstand me, Christians are guilty of damaging their testimony as well also throughout the centuries, what happened to the Jews can happen to Christians as well). That being said, God's love for the Jews is not to be ignored as Jim rightly points out. Even in Leviticus 26:40-46 despite the Jews' disobedience and being in the land of their enemies, God will not reject them.
"I think we cannot ignore one other thing. The prophets did give over some difficult words to Israel. But what did He have to say to the other nations? Many of those words are even harder. And what is often overlooked is that God gives correction to Israel, but He also gives words of comfort and promise.
Jim"
Correct, the things said to the Gentile nations around Israel were worse. While Israel were promised restoration to their land and reconciliation to God, the other nations not so. Where are Edom, Moab, Ammon and the other semitic nations that surrounded Israel, all of them are gone because of what they did to Israel and have either assimilated into other cultures or have been wiped out, the latter being the most likely. God does use other nations to discipline his people but will punish the other nations if they become too harsh or cruel.
I'll leave it at that.
Answering Judaism.
Sunday, 8 October 2017
Is the New Testament hate speech? A look at at Two letters from Jim to David
A while ago on one article I wrote on Anti-Semiticism (which you can find here: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/anti-semitism-in-nt-examining-claims-of_30.html), Uri Yosef (http://thejewishhome.org/counter-index.html) linked to two letters written by Jim of 1000 Verses:
https://judaismresources.net/2013/10/31/two-letters-from-jim-to-david/
Let's take a look at the letter.
"David, I appreciate that you do not see the NT as hate speech. To many modern Christians, it would not occur to them to hate the Jewish people for the things written therein."
It wouldn't occur to a modern day Christian that they should hate the Jewish people in regarding what the New Testament says about them. Anti-Semitism when one looks into the New Testament in it's proper context would never consider it to be a document of hate speech. Has the New Testament been used as hate, Yes but out of context did many evil men use it to justify hating the Jews.
"Let me explain why I call it hate speech. Even if the words addressed to the Pharisees and other groups were accurate–I do not say that they are–they weren’t delivered to those people. The books of the NT are largely directed to non-Jews. And so the image that is painted of the Pharisee to the non-Jew is one horribly skewed. They have no context. They are left with this image of a twisted people who killed either:
1. God (if you are a Trinitarian), or
2. Their rightful king (if you are a Trinitarian or not)
In fact, the NT tells us that the chief priests and Pharisees had put guards at Jesus tomb
because they feared that his disciples would steal the body and claim he was resurrected. When he was resurrected, the guards ran and told the chief priests what had happened, and they paid off the guards to say that the disciples stole the body (Mt. 27:62-66 and 28:11-15.) From here we see that these men must be totally evil. (If you think back to my answer to you in TYVM, you might realize that this story is absurd. The disciples didn’t even begin announcing the resurrection for another seven weeks.) Here, the chief priests, and presumably the Pharisees, know the truth, but they try to cover it up. See, the story itself is hate speech, because it tells us that the Jew is capable of anything, capable of lying about the resurrection and dooming their own people for self-aggrandizement."
The New Testament documents depending on which one you read was either written to Jews, Gentiles or both (Mark to new believers, Matthew to Jews and Christians on how to live the Christian life, Luke to Gentiles and John to believers). The letters of Paul were either written to mixed congregations of Jews and Gentiles or Gentiles, Hebrews (Some say the letter was written by Paul but we don't know) was written to Jewish believers. Timothy, Titus, Philemon and 1-3 John were written to individuals.
As for the stories in Matthew 27:62-66 and Matthew 28:11-15, How in the world would anyone reading conclude that the Jew is in your own words Jim "capable of anything, capable of lying about the resurrection and dooming their own people for self-aggrandizement."? The stories speak only of the enemies of Jesus, not his friends, which would have had Jews within the Christian ranks, even some Pharisees turned to faith in Jesus in repentance. I hardly think there is a justification for suggesting the story the Pharisees who denied Jesus rose from the dead and ran with a narrative that the disciples stole his body is hate speech.
"I made an unfair exchange in that last sentence. At first I’d been talking about Pharisees and priests. In the last sentence, I made it about the Jews. And it is my suspicion that you will call foul. And you are almost right to do so. But then, read through John. Who does John accuse of wanting to kill Jesus: the Jews. It’s not the Pharisees, it’s not the priests, but the Jews. The constant refrain in John is: “the Jews”. They are the ones antagonistic to Jesus. See, the NT doesn’t criticize the Jewish leadership. It is full of invective, both against them and the Jews at large.
And its not criticism. Not really. Jesus holds them accountable for the blood of Abel. That’s not criticism. That’s antagonism. Imagine if one of my daughters hit the other and took a book from her. And then I “corrected” her by yelling at her that not only is she accountable for that but for hitting the neighbor children, holding her responsible for sibling misbehaviors from other families. This would not be correction. But then, if I published a pamphlet to hand out to other children in the neighborhood, talking about how she assaulted other children, whom she’d never harmed, this would become a crime on my part of enormous proportions.
That’s the NT. It doesn’t merely offer criticism. It tells lies about the Jewish people. It spreads those lies to other peoples. And then those people, inspired by the NT have found reason to evict, torture, and kill the Jewish people."
John doesn't have to use a clarifier. He is referring to the Jews yes but you can tell by the context which Jews he is talking about.
See my articles on the Gospel of John responding to Uri Yosef:
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/anti-semitism-in-nt-examining-claims-of_8351.html
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/anti-semitism-in-nt-examining-claims-of_6026.html
Not every single Jew when John uses the phrase "The Jews" is blasted or hit with "invective".
Because the blood of Abel was brought up, I'll repeating the point I made in the second article which looks at Matthew and Luke:
"Luke 11:39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
43 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces.
44 “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which people walk over without knowing it.”
45 One of the experts in the law answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.”
46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.
Much like in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is condemning the Pharisees to hell for the spiritual deadness of Israel they have caused, their hypocrisy, their self rightousness and other things detestable to God. But even beyond that, teachers have a responsibility to handle God's word accurately and to not misrepresent it. They are also held to account for what they say the scriptures teach, which is why James in his epistle exhorts his readers to "let FEW of you be teachers".
People like me who are doing this apologetic work are also held more accountable to God much like teachers are, because of the exposition of the scriptures that takes place and those who manhandle the word of God should expect the judgement of God upon them.
The Pharisees and the Torah Scholars were not handling the bible correctly and thus they were in very serious trouble and standing with God, hence why Jesus spoke out against them in Luke 11." http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/anti-semitism-in-nt-examining-claims-of_6026.html
"We can’t be surprised at this reaction. When Jesus is crucified, the Jews are portrayed as wanting a robber to be freed rather than an innocent man, the innocent man. Even Pilate can see that Jesus is innocent. He doesn’t want to kill Jesus. But the Jews, they are all for it. That story is the very definition of hate speech. It doesn’t at all offer criticism. It paints a picture of the Jew that is so disfigured.
I understand it would never occur to you to look at this at hate speech. The NT is peppered with the word “love”. How could it be hateful?
It is.
With respect,
Jim"
Again not every Jew was responsible for the death of Jesus. The New Testament is not guilty of hate speech. The Westboro Baptist Church is guilty of hate speech. The Jews (again not all) wanted a robber free. Do an honest read of Matthew 27 and tell me, where is the hate speech?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027&version=NIV
"David,
I have a friend with whom I have often spoken about why I left the Church, and why I see the NT as untenable. In almost every conversation, he brings up how Jews are merely legalists who don’t really love God. (In his theology, doing the commands of God is not an expression of love, you see.) He sees their religion as wholly hypocritical, all action but no heart. Is this from his vast interaction with the Jewish people? No. I don’t think he knows one Jew personally. I know he doesn’t know any Torah observant Jews personally."
Doing the commands is not an expression of love? The New Testament has numerous points made that part of the Christian life involves submitting to God's commands. The differences being Gentiles are not obligated to follow the Torah although a Jew has the freedom to observe the Torah if he feels it honours the Messiah.
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/observance-of-torah-demanded-of-gentiles.html
The main point of the Bible is that you are saved not by works but by faith. Justification is by faith alone but faith is never alone, it leads to obeying God because of your love for him and gratitude to him.
"Where does he come by this knowledge then? The New Testament. Now, would he advocate killing Jews or burning their Torahs? No. Would he look for them to be pushed out of America? No. But it’s hard to say he doesn’t loathe them. For him, there is almost no crime worse than being legalistic. And it comes out when you talk to him. There is a disgust with the people who, in his opinion, do not love God and obsess over niggling details. That’s the power of the NT. He has an opinion about people he doesn’t know. And he judges their sincerity, having never observed their behavior."
One can't judge another's heart so I don't deny that Jews who follow the Torah do so because of what God told them on Mount Sinai and they have a tremendous passion for God. But there is no atonement that can deal with their sin and failure to keep the Torah in one area breaks the whole lot. It's like breaking the law of the land by speeding past one camera, insisting you slowed down near others but it's inconsequential because you still have broken the law. But does the New Testament really contribute to that line of thinking on the part of your friend, or is it a misunderstanding of the New Testament on his part?
"This leads to a further error, as well. He is unlikely to listen to the substance of an argument. Instead, he attributes motive to the arguer. He is able to write off their opinion without considering their merits. “You only think that because of motivation x or emotion y.” But he doesn’t address the actual points of the argument. He doesn’t even have to listen to the other person as if they too are a person with an intellect. He can write them off ahead of time. This is a deep error that obscures the truth."
Again the New Testament never encourages writing off an argument. It warns against hollow and deceptive philosophy (Colossians 2:9) and false teaching (Matthew 7:15, 24:24, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 1 John 4:1. These references were retrieved quickly from Patheos): http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2015/07/16/7-bible-verses-about-false-prophets/) but never does it encourage not listening to the substance of an argument, since we as Christians are called to give a defense for the hope that we have (1 Peter 3:15)
"He constantly judges the “heart condition” (his words) of the Jew. He doesn’t have to take their ideas seriously. He already knows they’re wrong, because he knows what they are like deep down inside. This makes me very sad for him, honestly. Not so much angry as sad. Because he never really confronts an opposing opinion. He avoids them by writing off other people. And that does us no good. By refusing to take others seriously, we cannot test our own ideas. We cannot rid ourselves of what is false, nor refine partially true.
Jim"
That's a problem that he needs to deal with. Having challenges to us gets us to think and make a decision.
To give an example of television that's thought provoking, Star Trek (The Prime timeline) itself never forces it's beliefs down your throat but rather gets the audience to think what is the right solution to the problem presented in the episode (Unless it's like Star Trek Insurrection or the like where it tries to hit you on the head with it's message.) Opposing opinions Christians need to challenge them and get them to consider a point and see what scripture says lest we become anemic. Challenge is what produces good fruit whereas no challenge gives rise to complacency (Unless you are in Heaven where opposition is never a consideration as evil has been punished and banished.)
Whatever the case, I don't have much to say on this part of the letter.
That's really all I have to say on these two letters.
Answering Judaism.
https://judaismresources.net/2013/10/31/two-letters-from-jim-to-david/
Let's take a look at the letter.
"David, I appreciate that you do not see the NT as hate speech. To many modern Christians, it would not occur to them to hate the Jewish people for the things written therein."
It wouldn't occur to a modern day Christian that they should hate the Jewish people in regarding what the New Testament says about them. Anti-Semitism when one looks into the New Testament in it's proper context would never consider it to be a document of hate speech. Has the New Testament been used as hate, Yes but out of context did many evil men use it to justify hating the Jews.
"Let me explain why I call it hate speech. Even if the words addressed to the Pharisees and other groups were accurate–I do not say that they are–they weren’t delivered to those people. The books of the NT are largely directed to non-Jews. And so the image that is painted of the Pharisee to the non-Jew is one horribly skewed. They have no context. They are left with this image of a twisted people who killed either:
1. God (if you are a Trinitarian), or
2. Their rightful king (if you are a Trinitarian or not)
In fact, the NT tells us that the chief priests and Pharisees had put guards at Jesus tomb
because they feared that his disciples would steal the body and claim he was resurrected. When he was resurrected, the guards ran and told the chief priests what had happened, and they paid off the guards to say that the disciples stole the body (Mt. 27:62-66 and 28:11-15.) From here we see that these men must be totally evil. (If you think back to my answer to you in TYVM, you might realize that this story is absurd. The disciples didn’t even begin announcing the resurrection for another seven weeks.) Here, the chief priests, and presumably the Pharisees, know the truth, but they try to cover it up. See, the story itself is hate speech, because it tells us that the Jew is capable of anything, capable of lying about the resurrection and dooming their own people for self-aggrandizement."
The New Testament documents depending on which one you read was either written to Jews, Gentiles or both (Mark to new believers, Matthew to Jews and Christians on how to live the Christian life, Luke to Gentiles and John to believers). The letters of Paul were either written to mixed congregations of Jews and Gentiles or Gentiles, Hebrews (Some say the letter was written by Paul but we don't know) was written to Jewish believers. Timothy, Titus, Philemon and 1-3 John were written to individuals.
As for the stories in Matthew 27:62-66 and Matthew 28:11-15, How in the world would anyone reading conclude that the Jew is in your own words Jim "capable of anything, capable of lying about the resurrection and dooming their own people for self-aggrandizement."? The stories speak only of the enemies of Jesus, not his friends, which would have had Jews within the Christian ranks, even some Pharisees turned to faith in Jesus in repentance. I hardly think there is a justification for suggesting the story the Pharisees who denied Jesus rose from the dead and ran with a narrative that the disciples stole his body is hate speech.
"I made an unfair exchange in that last sentence. At first I’d been talking about Pharisees and priests. In the last sentence, I made it about the Jews. And it is my suspicion that you will call foul. And you are almost right to do so. But then, read through John. Who does John accuse of wanting to kill Jesus: the Jews. It’s not the Pharisees, it’s not the priests, but the Jews. The constant refrain in John is: “the Jews”. They are the ones antagonistic to Jesus. See, the NT doesn’t criticize the Jewish leadership. It is full of invective, both against them and the Jews at large.
And its not criticism. Not really. Jesus holds them accountable for the blood of Abel. That’s not criticism. That’s antagonism. Imagine if one of my daughters hit the other and took a book from her. And then I “corrected” her by yelling at her that not only is she accountable for that but for hitting the neighbor children, holding her responsible for sibling misbehaviors from other families. This would not be correction. But then, if I published a pamphlet to hand out to other children in the neighborhood, talking about how she assaulted other children, whom she’d never harmed, this would become a crime on my part of enormous proportions.
That’s the NT. It doesn’t merely offer criticism. It tells lies about the Jewish people. It spreads those lies to other peoples. And then those people, inspired by the NT have found reason to evict, torture, and kill the Jewish people."
John doesn't have to use a clarifier. He is referring to the Jews yes but you can tell by the context which Jews he is talking about.
See my articles on the Gospel of John responding to Uri Yosef:
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/anti-semitism-in-nt-examining-claims-of_8351.html
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/anti-semitism-in-nt-examining-claims-of_6026.html
Not every single Jew when John uses the phrase "The Jews" is blasted or hit with "invective".
Because the blood of Abel was brought up, I'll repeating the point I made in the second article which looks at Matthew and Luke:
"Luke 11:39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
43 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces.
44 “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which people walk over without knowing it.”
45 One of the experts in the law answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.”
46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.
Much like in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is condemning the Pharisees to hell for the spiritual deadness of Israel they have caused, their hypocrisy, their self rightousness and other things detestable to God. But even beyond that, teachers have a responsibility to handle God's word accurately and to not misrepresent it. They are also held to account for what they say the scriptures teach, which is why James in his epistle exhorts his readers to "let FEW of you be teachers".
People like me who are doing this apologetic work are also held more accountable to God much like teachers are, because of the exposition of the scriptures that takes place and those who manhandle the word of God should expect the judgement of God upon them.
The Pharisees and the Torah Scholars were not handling the bible correctly and thus they were in very serious trouble and standing with God, hence why Jesus spoke out against them in Luke 11." http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/anti-semitism-in-nt-examining-claims-of_6026.html
"We can’t be surprised at this reaction. When Jesus is crucified, the Jews are portrayed as wanting a robber to be freed rather than an innocent man, the innocent man. Even Pilate can see that Jesus is innocent. He doesn’t want to kill Jesus. But the Jews, they are all for it. That story is the very definition of hate speech. It doesn’t at all offer criticism. It paints a picture of the Jew that is so disfigured.
I understand it would never occur to you to look at this at hate speech. The NT is peppered with the word “love”. How could it be hateful?
It is.
With respect,
Jim"
Again not every Jew was responsible for the death of Jesus. The New Testament is not guilty of hate speech. The Westboro Baptist Church is guilty of hate speech. The Jews (again not all) wanted a robber free. Do an honest read of Matthew 27 and tell me, where is the hate speech?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027&version=NIV
"David,
I have a friend with whom I have often spoken about why I left the Church, and why I see the NT as untenable. In almost every conversation, he brings up how Jews are merely legalists who don’t really love God. (In his theology, doing the commands of God is not an expression of love, you see.) He sees their religion as wholly hypocritical, all action but no heart. Is this from his vast interaction with the Jewish people? No. I don’t think he knows one Jew personally. I know he doesn’t know any Torah observant Jews personally."
Doing the commands is not an expression of love? The New Testament has numerous points made that part of the Christian life involves submitting to God's commands. The differences being Gentiles are not obligated to follow the Torah although a Jew has the freedom to observe the Torah if he feels it honours the Messiah.
http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/observance-of-torah-demanded-of-gentiles.html
The main point of the Bible is that you are saved not by works but by faith. Justification is by faith alone but faith is never alone, it leads to obeying God because of your love for him and gratitude to him.
"Where does he come by this knowledge then? The New Testament. Now, would he advocate killing Jews or burning their Torahs? No. Would he look for them to be pushed out of America? No. But it’s hard to say he doesn’t loathe them. For him, there is almost no crime worse than being legalistic. And it comes out when you talk to him. There is a disgust with the people who, in his opinion, do not love God and obsess over niggling details. That’s the power of the NT. He has an opinion about people he doesn’t know. And he judges their sincerity, having never observed their behavior."
One can't judge another's heart so I don't deny that Jews who follow the Torah do so because of what God told them on Mount Sinai and they have a tremendous passion for God. But there is no atonement that can deal with their sin and failure to keep the Torah in one area breaks the whole lot. It's like breaking the law of the land by speeding past one camera, insisting you slowed down near others but it's inconsequential because you still have broken the law. But does the New Testament really contribute to that line of thinking on the part of your friend, or is it a misunderstanding of the New Testament on his part?
"This leads to a further error, as well. He is unlikely to listen to the substance of an argument. Instead, he attributes motive to the arguer. He is able to write off their opinion without considering their merits. “You only think that because of motivation x or emotion y.” But he doesn’t address the actual points of the argument. He doesn’t even have to listen to the other person as if they too are a person with an intellect. He can write them off ahead of time. This is a deep error that obscures the truth."
Again the New Testament never encourages writing off an argument. It warns against hollow and deceptive philosophy (Colossians 2:9) and false teaching (Matthew 7:15, 24:24, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 1 John 4:1. These references were retrieved quickly from Patheos): http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2015/07/16/7-bible-verses-about-false-prophets/) but never does it encourage not listening to the substance of an argument, since we as Christians are called to give a defense for the hope that we have (1 Peter 3:15)
"He constantly judges the “heart condition” (his words) of the Jew. He doesn’t have to take their ideas seriously. He already knows they’re wrong, because he knows what they are like deep down inside. This makes me very sad for him, honestly. Not so much angry as sad. Because he never really confronts an opposing opinion. He avoids them by writing off other people. And that does us no good. By refusing to take others seriously, we cannot test our own ideas. We cannot rid ourselves of what is false, nor refine partially true.
Jim"
That's a problem that he needs to deal with. Having challenges to us gets us to think and make a decision.
To give an example of television that's thought provoking, Star Trek (The Prime timeline) itself never forces it's beliefs down your throat but rather gets the audience to think what is the right solution to the problem presented in the episode (Unless it's like Star Trek Insurrection or the like where it tries to hit you on the head with it's message.) Opposing opinions Christians need to challenge them and get them to consider a point and see what scripture says lest we become anemic. Challenge is what produces good fruit whereas no challenge gives rise to complacency (Unless you are in Heaven where opposition is never a consideration as evil has been punished and banished.)
Whatever the case, I don't have much to say on this part of the letter.
That's really all I have to say on these two letters.
Answering Judaism.
Saturday, 7 October 2017
Jonah 3: Is Blood Sacrifice relevant to the point of the author?
Back in 2013, I addressed some videos by Jono Vandor and Jason Spiritual Babies on the subject of Blood Atonement and Jonah 3 was raised as a point, in order to say that blood sacrifices were not needed to appease God. You can find their comments here: 12:00-13:29 Truth2U - Regarding all these words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xazbHYRGKus
Firstly, Was blood atonement relevant to the point of the book? Not really. Does it refute what Christians say about blood atonement? No.
"Jonah Goes to Nineveh
3 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city,[a] three days' journey in breadth.[b] 4 Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” 5 And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.
The People of Nineveh Repent
6 The word reached[c] the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, 8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.”
10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it."
Are we told whether sacrifices were made by the Ninevites, No. Could they have done, yes and no.
They wouldn't of had the means or proper of atonement nor is there an indicator that they turned to the God of Israel, though what a fascinating idea that they would follow Jonah back to Israel after repentance toward God. We simply don't know
But other than that, Michael L Brown mentioned a rabbinic tradition in his dialogue with Shmuley Boteach on It's Supernatural and in his 2nd Volume of Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus (Which I have yet to read, I am currently on the first one at the time of this writing), He mentions Sukkah 55b where Yohannan mentions the destruction of the atonement and criticises the Romans for destroying it, which would indicate the temple was designed to make atonement for the other nations, at least according to the Rabbi in the tradition:
"א"ר יוחנן אוי להם לעובדי כוכבים שאבדו ואין יודעין מה שאבדו בזמן שבהמ"ק קיים מזבח מכפר עליהן ועכשיו מי מכפר עליהן:
Rabbi Yoḥanan said: Woe unto the nations of the world that lost something and do not know what they lost. When the Temple is standing, the seventy bulls sacrificed on the altar during the festival of Sukkot atones for them. And now that the Temple is destroyed, who atones for them?": https://www.sefaria.org/Sukkah.55b.11/en/William_Davidson_Edition_-_English?lang=bi
I leave you to judge the tradition for yourself.
Assuming Brown's interpretation of the tradition is correct, it does safely lay to rest the point that atonement in blood was made just not how we expect, namely Israel doing the atonement for the nations (assuming repentance is present within those nations.
Answering Judaism
Wednesday, 13 September 2017
The Mark of the Beast: What is it?
"Revelation 13:11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence,[c] and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, 14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of[d] the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. 16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave,[e] to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666."
This may be a shock or not depending on if you follow me on Facebook, but let me be very clear. The Mark of the Beast is not a microchip.
Those who present this have one gaping flaw in their theology and concerns which they overlook. To use the words of David Pawson when talking about the Beast, "The Anti-Christ, has to come before the Christ comes and the Anti-Christ hasn't come yet".
If the Anti-Christ isn't here yet and isn't worshiped yet, it follows logically that the Mark of the Beast does not exist yet.
Are there many Anti-Christs in the world? Yes.
"2 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour."
Could there be preludes to the mark, possibly. But overall, there is no cause for concern unless a Christian risks compromising his faith, meaning he is forced to do an evil task or be ousted.
The Mark does not exist yet and Christians need to stop panicking about taking the Mark for that reason. There are far greater concerns in the world, namely idolatry and witchcraft being encouraged as well as sexual deviation. Don't waste your time on nonsense about the Mark.
Answering Judaism.
Friday, 8 September 2017
The rich young ruler: Follow Jesus to the end
Most of us are familiar with the story of the rich young ruler, It's not an easy thing for us to really look at, Jesus makes what appears to be a impossible demand, but noting with God all things are possible.
Let us take a look.
"Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”
24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”
27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
28 Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”
29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”"
What we have is a man confident that he himself has kept all the commandments but indeed as faltered. Jesus in the conversation draws the man out and make him realise what standard of good we have to be. His response of why do you call me good is not a denial of his essential goodness nor is it a denial of his deity. He is challenging the presumptiousness of calling someone good, when they don't meet the standard of good that demands.
Jesus presses the man further highlighting specifically the commands of loving one's neighbour, to which the man responds he has kept them. However Jesus goes on and tells the man what he must do, which the man doesn't like and he turns away upset, presumably never to return.
Now is also important to note something here, Jesus says this:
"Luke 12:13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” 14 But he said to him, “Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you?” 15 And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” 16 And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully, 17 and he thought to himself, ‘What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?’ 18 And he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.”’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ 21 So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God.”"
Possessions in and of themselves are not bad, but can be a problem if they become your god. If you concentrate on accumulation of possessions and let them control you, you will go into ruin. You must never go to a point that the rich man did in the context of the parable, it led him to having many possessions on earth at the expense of disloyalty to God and even forgetting God. The covetousness began to overtake him.
Again, this is not the same as "Hmm, sounds interesting, I might get that", This is more "I must have this in order for to be complete." or one has to get this no matter the cost.
Riches can easily become idols to us and we either must put the riches back in their proper place as intended in the best case scenario or renounce them completely in the worst case scenario. The rich man who went away sad let his riches get in the way (Matthew 19:22 and Mark 10:22) and Jesus has made it clear that we must be willing to follow him to the end, even if family disown us, possessions are lost in the process, being willing to give up everything to follow him (Which would be blasphemy if Jesus was a mere creature BTW, but I digress).*
Jesus was showing the rich man that his money was his idol. Christ's point was that you must be willing to forsake all to follow him. He is not saying that all sell their possessions, he is demanding people to love him and the Father more than everything in this world. Jesus was not sinning what so ever when telling the rich man to sell his riches, he was pointing out the man was an idolater and had not kept the commandments perfectly. Whatever demands Jesus has for you, You'd better be prepared to carry them out, myself included.
See my article on covetousness: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/covetousness-what-is-it.html
We may ask the question to Jesus "Do we have to give up all to follow you?", But why ask the question? If you are in Christ, Why worry about giving something up if it isn't an idol to you? You lay aside time from your hobbies to do important work and may lay aside work (though not neglecting the work) to focus on the study of God's word and implementing what you study and learn in your life and live for Jesus, which is commendable, but ask yourself, Do I care if this neutral thing is a part of my life? Is it integral to me? Is it so necessary to have at the cost of my soul? or is it merely something I enjoy doing but don't really care about laying aside as Christ is the one who ultimately fulfills me?
The question "Must we give up all?" came to mind upon reading a paper which I later shared on the Answering Judaism page: http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/18_18-23.htm
That's not to say the item itself is bad (unless of course it is something sinful and has to be let go regardless), it's your attitude. Is it so ingrained into your life you cannot live without it, or is it something that comes and goes and you just don't care? Maybe the Lord calls you for a task, a mission, someone to talk to you about problems they are having or want to spend time and it takes you away from the hobby or work for a time, but you know it's not important to you, but the task and person who needs help have to be dealt with, not begrudgingly but out of love and no matter how long the Lord calls you away, be it temporarily or permanently, you do what he says.
The Life Application Study Bible commenting on Matthew 19:21 says the following:
"Should all believers sell everything they own? No. We are responsible for our own needs and the needs of our families so as not to be a burden on others. We should, however, be willing to give up anything if God asks us to do so. This kind of attitude allows nothing to come between us and God and keeps us from using our God-given wealth selfishly. If you are relieved by the fact that Christ did not tell all his followers to sell all their possessions, then you may be too attached to what you have"
The Life Application Study Bible, Page 1583.
Hard to read, but it makes no attempt to obfuscate and neither should we. Jesus never obfuscated or hid what he intended to say. Man may end up doing it, but Jesus is not interested in that. By no means, even if it's a one time lapse or mistake should we ever sugarcoat the Gospel. Count the cost is what Jesus has said to us, we have to know the cost of being a disciple:
"Luke 14:25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’
31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
34 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.
“Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”"
Following Jesus is no small feat and it's no easier for us today as it was for the disciples back then. Whatever it is, we must follow Jesus to the end and even if we lose everything on earth, we have everything when Jesus reigns forever.
"Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save their life[b] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”"
"Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."
"Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels."
All these verses hammer the point home, Jesus demands total commitment, even if you lose everything, it doesn't profit you if you abandon Jesus either for the pleasures of sin or put a neutral thing before him. We need to be serious in our calling to Jesus.
Answering Judaism.
Let us take a look.
"Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”
24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”
27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
28 Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”
29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”"
What we have is a man confident that he himself has kept all the commandments but indeed as faltered. Jesus in the conversation draws the man out and make him realise what standard of good we have to be. His response of why do you call me good is not a denial of his essential goodness nor is it a denial of his deity. He is challenging the presumptiousness of calling someone good, when they don't meet the standard of good that demands.
Jesus presses the man further highlighting specifically the commands of loving one's neighbour, to which the man responds he has kept them. However Jesus goes on and tells the man what he must do, which the man doesn't like and he turns away upset, presumably never to return.
Now is also important to note something here, Jesus says this:
"Luke 12:13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” 14 But he said to him, “Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you?” 15 And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” 16 And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully, 17 and he thought to himself, ‘What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?’ 18 And he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.”’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ 21 So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God.”"
Possessions in and of themselves are not bad, but can be a problem if they become your god. If you concentrate on accumulation of possessions and let them control you, you will go into ruin. You must never go to a point that the rich man did in the context of the parable, it led him to having many possessions on earth at the expense of disloyalty to God and even forgetting God. The covetousness began to overtake him.
Again, this is not the same as "Hmm, sounds interesting, I might get that", This is more "I must have this in order for to be complete." or one has to get this no matter the cost.
Riches can easily become idols to us and we either must put the riches back in their proper place as intended in the best case scenario or renounce them completely in the worst case scenario. The rich man who went away sad let his riches get in the way (Matthew 19:22 and Mark 10:22) and Jesus has made it clear that we must be willing to follow him to the end, even if family disown us, possessions are lost in the process, being willing to give up everything to follow him (Which would be blasphemy if Jesus was a mere creature BTW, but I digress).*
Jesus was showing the rich man that his money was his idol. Christ's point was that you must be willing to forsake all to follow him. He is not saying that all sell their possessions, he is demanding people to love him and the Father more than everything in this world. Jesus was not sinning what so ever when telling the rich man to sell his riches, he was pointing out the man was an idolater and had not kept the commandments perfectly. Whatever demands Jesus has for you, You'd better be prepared to carry them out, myself included.
See my article on covetousness: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/covetousness-what-is-it.html
We may ask the question to Jesus "Do we have to give up all to follow you?", But why ask the question? If you are in Christ, Why worry about giving something up if it isn't an idol to you? You lay aside time from your hobbies to do important work and may lay aside work (though not neglecting the work) to focus on the study of God's word and implementing what you study and learn in your life and live for Jesus, which is commendable, but ask yourself, Do I care if this neutral thing is a part of my life? Is it integral to me? Is it so necessary to have at the cost of my soul? or is it merely something I enjoy doing but don't really care about laying aside as Christ is the one who ultimately fulfills me?
The question "Must we give up all?" came to mind upon reading a paper which I later shared on the Answering Judaism page: http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/18_18-23.htm
That's not to say the item itself is bad (unless of course it is something sinful and has to be let go regardless), it's your attitude. Is it so ingrained into your life you cannot live without it, or is it something that comes and goes and you just don't care? Maybe the Lord calls you for a task, a mission, someone to talk to you about problems they are having or want to spend time and it takes you away from the hobby or work for a time, but you know it's not important to you, but the task and person who needs help have to be dealt with, not begrudgingly but out of love and no matter how long the Lord calls you away, be it temporarily or permanently, you do what he says.
The Life Application Study Bible commenting on Matthew 19:21 says the following:
"Should all believers sell everything they own? No. We are responsible for our own needs and the needs of our families so as not to be a burden on others. We should, however, be willing to give up anything if God asks us to do so. This kind of attitude allows nothing to come between us and God and keeps us from using our God-given wealth selfishly. If you are relieved by the fact that Christ did not tell all his followers to sell all their possessions, then you may be too attached to what you have"
The Life Application Study Bible, Page 1583.
Hard to read, but it makes no attempt to obfuscate and neither should we. Jesus never obfuscated or hid what he intended to say. Man may end up doing it, but Jesus is not interested in that. By no means, even if it's a one time lapse or mistake should we ever sugarcoat the Gospel. Count the cost is what Jesus has said to us, we have to know the cost of being a disciple:
"Luke 14:25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’
31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
34 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.
“Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”"
Following Jesus is no small feat and it's no easier for us today as it was for the disciples back then. Whatever it is, we must follow Jesus to the end and even if we lose everything on earth, we have everything when Jesus reigns forever.
"Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save their life[b] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”"
"Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."
"Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels."
All these verses hammer the point home, Jesus demands total commitment, even if you lose everything, it doesn't profit you if you abandon Jesus either for the pleasures of sin or put a neutral thing before him. We need to be serious in our calling to Jesus.
Answering Judaism.
* 20th of July 2024. Jesus is saying give up everything to follow him. I apologise for softening that. Another comment to make is that it varies from person to person, what one renounces for Jesus differs from person to person except sin itself.
In certain cases, Jesus may return a neutral thing to you if you are in love with him and serve him and do not let the neutral thing become your master. This again varies from person to person but nevertheless, If Jesus is God, he deserves the same service as given to the Father.
See again the article “Must I give up all”
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