The Elohim Conspiracy? A response to olkee-1

olkee is known on Paltalk by a number of individuals. He is a member of the House of Yahweh cult, here is what they teach in this link: http://www.yahweh.com/about_us.html

But we are not here to talk about his group, that if the Lord Wills will be saved for another time. 

I was in Christian Prince's room on the 30th of December 2015. (a very rare thing I do) and he came in and contended with Prince on what Allah meant, whether it was a title or a name. olkee then if my memory serves me correctly went on to say that Elohim was a term that was inserted by the Jews and that the word Elohim is used of false gods, therefore it cannot be used of YHWH.

This is a lie. The word Elohim is like the English word God, its a term that can be used in many different contexts.

Depending on the context, Elohim can be used of YHWH, false gods, angels, powerful men etc depending on context. Moses is made Elohim or God unto pharaoh, does that mean Moses is a demon? No.

Here is how Elohim is used in that context of Exodus 7: 

"7 And the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet." Look at the following from bible.hub: http://biblehub.com/text/exodus/7-1.htm

Westminster Leningrad Codex: אֱלֹהִ֖ים

Westminster Leningrad Codex: אלהים

It is already worth looking at this link: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-4.htm

(Sam Shamoun shared the link in the room, Thanks Sam.)

I want olkee to provide evidence of where the Jews corrupted the Torah and Jeremiah 8:8 has nothing to do with corrupting the text. The context is actually talking MISINTERPRETING THE TEXT, not re-writing it. 

Sam Shamoun notes the following on Jeremiah 8:8:

"Muslims often appeal to Jeremiah 8:8 as proof that the Torah has been corrupted:

"How can you say, ‘We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,’ when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Jeremiah 8:8

Several comments are in order. First, even if this passage were speaking about an actual corruption of the text, this would only be referring to the copies that were in the possession of the scribes. It wouldn’t refer to all the copies that were in the hands of others such as Daniel the prophet. More on this later. Secondly, Jeremiah was a prophet of God, which means that he was receiving revelation from God. As such, Jeremiah would have been quite capable of restoring the Torah to its true pristine form at the direct orders of God, and hence nothing of the Torah could be corrupted! In fact, something similar happened with Jeremiah’s own revelation:

"In the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came to Jeremiah from the Lord: ‘Take a scroll and write on it all the words I have spoken to you concerning Israel, Judah and all the other nations from the time I began speaking to you in the reign of Josiah till now. Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, each of them will turn from his wicked way; then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin.’ So Jeremiah called Baruch son of Neriah, and while Jeremiah dictated all the words the Lord had spoken to him, Baruch wrote them on the scroll. Then Jeremiah told Baruch, ‘I am restricted; I cannot go to the Lord 's temple. So you go to the house of the Lord on a day of fasting and read to the people from the scroll the words of the Lord that you wrote as I dictated. Read them to all the people of Judah who come in from their towns. Perhaps they will bring their petition before the Lord, and each will turn from his wicked ways, for the anger and wrath pronounced against this people by the Lord are great’ ... After they put the scroll in the room of Elishama the secretary, they went to the king in the courtyard and reported everything to him. The king sent Jehudi to get the scroll, and Jehudi brought it from the room of Elishama the secretary and read it to the king and all the officials standing beside him. It was the ninth month and the king was sitting in the winter apartment, with a fire burning in the firepot in front of him. Whenever Jehudi had read three or four columns of the scroll, the king cut them off with a scribe's knife and threw them into the firepot, until the entire scroll was burned in the fire. The king and all his attendants who heard all these words showed no fear, nor did they tear their clothes. Even though Elnathan, Delaiah and Gemariah urged the king not to burn the scroll, he would not listen to them. Instead, the king commanded Jerahmeel, a son of the king, Seraiah son of Azriel and Shelemiah son of Abdeel to arrest Baruch the scribe and Jeremiah the prophet. But the LORD had hidden them. After the king burned the scroll containing the words that Baruch had written at Jeremiah's dictation, the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: ‘Take another scroll and write on it all the words that were on the first scroll, which Jehoiakim king of Judah burned up. Also tell Jehoiakim king of Judah, ‘This is what the Lord says: You burned that scroll and said, "Why did you write on it that the king of Babylon would certainly come and destroy this land and cut off both men and animals from it?" Therefore, this is what the Lord says about Jehoiakim king of Judah: He will have no one to sit on the throne of David; his body will be thrown out and exposed to the heat by day and the frost by night. I will punish him and his children and his attendants for their wickedness; I will bring on them and those living in Jerusalem and the people of Judah every disaster I pronounced against them, because they have not listened.’ So Jeremiah took another scroll and gave it to the scribe Baruch son of Neriah, and as Jeremiah dictated, Baruch wrote on it all the words of the scroll that Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire. And many similar words were added to them." Jeremiah 36: 1-7, 20-32, 27-32

If God was capable of restoring the revelation given to Jeremiah after it had been destroyed, then the same God would also have been capable of restoring the original Torah and have his prophets record it! There was, however, no such corruption in the first place." http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/jer8_8_ss.html

Hence, olkee is in no position to claim what he claimed.

Speaking of Sam Shamoun, Shamoun himself pointed out that olkee's claims were false and even pointed out it was a THEORY, not fact. In fact, the theory in question is what is known as the JEPD theory: http://www.theopedia.com/jedp-theory

If olkee is proclaiming this, then he is calling Jesus and others liars because they themselves said Moses wrote it.

I would challenge olkee to back up his claims and not to make them without significant evidence.

Answering Judaism.

Matthew 18: What does it teach and other comments

There is a confusion among Christians as to what Matthew 18 teaches. So let us take a look.

When it comes to challenging a false teacher and I have had this similar point given to me, that we should speak to people privately if you have a concern about false teaching.

What does Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5 actually say?
Firstly let's look at Matthew 18:
"15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[f] in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”"

This is not addressing false teachers or heretics, it is addressing the topic of what to do with a Christian that refuses to repent. Jesus is laying out the steps that a Christian should take if a Christian brother is engaging in sin and refuses to heed warnings and instructions from them.

1 Corinthians 5 explains the following:

"5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.[a]

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church[b] whom you are to judge? 13 God judges[c] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”"

Paul further expands on what Jesus said regarding putting unrepentant Christians out of the church and goes as far as telling us not to even eat with that person, until there is sincere repentance.

Some would point to Jesus eating with tax collectors though they completely miss the point of that section. Firstly, the people that Jesus was eating with were not his followers and secondly, his intention was to bring them to repentance, NOT to let them continue in their life style. You cannot compare Jesus' compassion on sinners and his mission of repentance to Jesus' discipline in the life of the church.

When it comes to heresy, It is quite possible to challenge someone as found in Matthew 18, but that is to do with the church, it has nothing to do with another person who is a wolf in sheeps clothing misleading the flock.

Jesus tells us to beware of false teachers (Matthew 7:15) and John even tells us not to even with or greet false teachers lest we partake of their evil works (2 John 1:10). Heretics are people who are lost, they need to be prayed for and witnessed to, but a an unrepentant heretic is to be marked and warned. You cannot go to a false teacher in private, The false teacher is proclaiming his teaching in public, so therefore it stands to reason that he is to be marked, exposed and refuted in public. Matthew 18 is not addressing what to do with heretics in public, it's addressing what to do with a Christian in a local congregation.

In fact this is what Paul, by the authority of Jesus, told us to do with heretics if they refuse to repent:
"8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. 9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

Heretics trying to divide those united IN TRUTH and cause ACTUAL division (I emphasize truth and actual because some falsely use division as an excuse to justify ecumenism or a refusal to expose false teachings) must be marked and separated from.

Some complain when names are mentioned when it comes to false teachers, that we shouldn't name names. I'm sorry, doth my ears deceive me? We can't name names? Paul named names, as did John (3 John 1:9), they warned us about false teachers BY NAME:
"2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,[c] a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”"

Talk spreading like gangrene, not a positive description when you think about how gangrene spreads and how destructive it is. False teaching is destructive and must be challenged. It cannot be simply reduced to a private matter.

False teachers can be challenged publicly and must be challenged publicly, Matthew 18 doesn't apply to them.

Answering Judaism.

Common lies about apologists

This is a general list commenting on many lies that are spread about certain well known and others not so well known apologists.

James White
The attitude towards James White from some individuals I have seen, there is almost a portrayal on their part that when James White is confronted with something he can't refute (according to them), he laughs it off in debate or out of debate, or there is even the claim that his arguments are not worth responding to.

I have already commented on the subject of his Dr title and some other false accusations so I'll just link to the paper: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/more-roman-catholic-and-eastern.html

From his debates, White has never demonstrated this attitude of laughing off someone's argument and does attempt to respond to what others are saying to him. I would challenge anyone to show me documentation where White does what is claimed about him.

Paul Washer and John MacArthur
Both these two are thoroughly misrepresented when it comes to Lordship Salvation and are accused of teaching works salvation. However, if you are to look at quotes in context or sermons, nothing could be further from the truth and they both actually preach against works salvation

Lordship Salvation is NOT saying you are saved by works. It recognizes that a Christian is under the Lordship of Christ once he or she has been taken under his wing. I would recommend reading this particular article on the subject: http://www.gty.org.uk/resources/articles/A114/an-introduction-to-lordship-salvation?Term=lordship%20salvation

Sam Shamoun
Many Muslims try to anger Sam Shamoun and record him and try to paint him as an ugly foul creature that shouldn't be followed.

HOWEVER, What most fail to tell you is this and this is what Shamoun himself has pointed out.
"I normally do not treat sincere Muslims, who ask sincere questions this way, In fact I DON'T treat sincere Muslims who ask sincere questions this way. Because when I see a sincere Muslim asking sincere questions, I want to answer his questions with the hopes that the Lord Jesus will touch his heart. However, when you deal with blasphemous internet trolls, blasphemous Muhammadans, who have no shame in blaspheming the Lord Jesus Christ and slandering the people of God, then I will not hesitate to give them a taste of their own medicine, treat them as they deserve."

and

"Muslims if you respect us and ask sincere questions, I'll respect you in turn, and I will answer all the questions by the grace of Jesus Christ, with the hopes that you'll see the truth and escape Islam. But Muslims, If you blaspheme the Lord Jesus and attack his people, then do not feel shocked when I give you a taste of your own medicine, treat you as you deserve, because there are passages in the Bible that say, sometimes if necessary to answer a fool according to his stupidity."

The comments can be found here in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oIEijB2rzc

Myself
I have already commented on other lies in another paper so I'll just simply link to that: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/just-few-comments.html

One set of lies pertains to me and Shamoun collectively, namely the false accusations of contacting his wife, emailing and inviting his kids to Islam, helping Anjem Choudary in a debate, being malicious to Shamoun, trying to steal his money and viewers through web trafficking etc. All of which are simply untrue. It makes me wonder if the people who spend time making rumours about others, be they me or other apologists I have mentioned have anything better to do with their lives.

If there was one thing I would say regarding Shamoun's website, it would be this, go to his website with my blessing.

More may be mentioned in a later paper Lord Willing

Answering Judaism.

Universalism and the Church Fathers: Addendum on Tertullian

This article covers quickly two chapters from Tertullian's apology which can be found here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm

Next, Chapter 48:

When, therefore, the boundary and limit, that millennial interspace, has been passed, when even the outward fashion of the world itself— which has been spread like a veil over the eternal economy, equally a thing of time— passes away, then the whole human race shall be raised again, to have its dues meted out according as it has merited in the period of good or evil, and thereafter to have these paid out through the immeasurable ages of eternity. Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged— the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire— that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. The philosophers are familiar as well as we with the distinction between a common and a secret fire. Thus that which is in common use is far different from that which we see in divine judgments, whether striking as thunderbolts from heaven, or bursting up out of the earth through mountain-tops; for it does not consume what it scorches, but while it burns it repairs. So the mountains continue ever burning; and a person struck by lighting is even now kept safe from any destroying flame. A notable proof this of the fire eternal! A notable example of the endless judgment which still supplies punishment with fuel! The mountains burn, and last. How will it be with the wicked and the enemies of God?

Tertullian is confirming the destinies of the human race after death, either eternal life or eternal death, giving no evidence of universalism. The healing fire that is present is not a restorative fire, but simply fire that continues to burn, as if fuel is constantly being fed to it, prolonging it.

And finally, Chapter 49:
"These are what are called presumptuous speculations in our case alone; in the philosophers and poets they are regarded as sublime speculations and illustrious discoveries. They are men of wisdom, we are fools. They are worthy of all honour, we are folk to have the finger pointed at; nay, besides that, we are even to have punishments inflicted on us. But let things which are the defence of virtue, if you will, have no foundation, and give them duly the name of fancies, yet still they are necessary; let them be absurd if you will, yet they are of use: they make all who believe them better men and women, under the fear of never-ending punishment and the hope of never-ending bliss."

The argument that Tertullian means only for a time doesn't work in light of what he is saying and it's a similar statement to what I and others have said. If hell is not eternal and conscious, neither is heaven. You cannot have one that is eternal but not the other.

Answering Judaism.

Addendum to Adam, Eve and the Fall: Response to Sophiee Saguy: Comments on Genesis 4:7

"People are not born into sin. People are born with an inclination to evil and may choose between good or evil. Again, this is clearly stated in Torah.

This is re-enforced in Genesis 4:7 when G-d speaks to Cain and tells him that good and evil are his choices and that he (Cain) should choose good. G-d tells Cain that he can master evil.

Ergo if Cain can CHOOSE he isnt born evil or born into sin."

The text actually says:
"Genesis 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.”[d] While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him."

While Cain was presented with a choice, he refused to take the right road. Barnes in his commentary has an interesting take on this text:
"And if thou do not well, at the door is sin lying. - Sin past, in its unrequited and unacknowledged guilt; sin present, in its dark and stubborn passion and despair; but, above all, sin future, as the growing habit of a soul that persists in an evil temper, and therefore must add iniquity unto iniquity, is awaiting thee at the door, as a crouching slave the bidding of his master. As one lie borrows an endless train of others to keep up a vain appearance of consistency, so one sin if not repented of and forsaken involves the dire necessity of plunging deeper and deeper into the gulf of depravity and retribution. This dread warning to Cain, expressed in the mildest and plainest terms, is a standing lesson written for the learning of all mankind. Let him who is in the wrong retract at once, and return to God with humble acknowledgment of his own guilt, and unreserved submission to the mercy of his Maker; for to him who perseveres in sin there can be no hope or help. Another sentence is added to give intensity to the warning." (http://biblehub.com/commentaries/genesis/4-6.htm)

The only theory I have is Cain was like Abel at some point in his life. Either he was righteous like Abel by God's grace and he fell away, or he feigned goodness (Abel didn't feign goodness to clarify). But here is the thing, Sin is not so easy to master as many would like us to believe, but that is no excuse to deliberately submit to it and that is indeed what Cain, sadly did. For that matter, Cain would only be able to overcome his sin if he allowed God to do a mighty work in him to restore him but obviously Cain hardened his heart and refused.

Anthony Rogers of Answering Islam provided his comments on this issue when I inquired about this point:
""People are born with an inclination to evil..."

True, people are inclined toward evil from birth. But this isn't the way God made man, i.e. Adam, and is a result of the fall.

In addition, this inclination to evil, being contrary to man's original "goodness," i.e. contrary to what man was when he first came from the hand of his Maker, is itself evil. Notice, for example, that Genesis 6 does not simply say that man is inclined to evil but that his inclinations themselves are evil:

"5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord."

What distinguished Noah and set him apart from the people of his time was not that he was good and chose the good but that he found FAVOR/GRACE in the eyes of the Lord.

Genesis 4:7 does say that sin is crouching at the door and that Cain must master it, but it does not say that he had the ability to do so, at least not of himself. The only way Cain would have been able to overcome his own (sinful) bent toward sin is if Cain, like Noah, would have "found favor in the eyes of the Lord.""

Hopefully the comments have been addressed adequately.

Answering Judaism.

Did Justin Martyr believe in Universalism?

In this article, we are going to take a look at Justin Martyr's First Apology to see if he held to a universalist perspective. Here is the letter if you want to read for yourself (It was 23rd of September 2017 that a link to the letter has been provided but I don't think I read it here, I am not sure): http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

Justin Martyr, First Apology
We observe the following in the context of Justin's letter. Firstly, let us take a look at Chapter 8:
"And reckon that it is for your sakes we have been saying these things; for it is in our power, when we are examined, to deny that we are Christians; but we would not live by telling a lie. For, impelled by the desire of the eternal and pure life, we seek the abode that is with God, the Father and Creator of all, and hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that they who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. This, then, to speak shortly, is what we expect and have learned from Christ, and teach. And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm."

Justin isn't saying that hellfire came from the pagans, He is however saying that the pagans are teaching similar things to the Christians but points out Christ is the one to dispense judgement. He also points out that hell is eternal and NOT merely for a period of time, specifically, not for 1000 years only.

Let's also take a look at a section in Chapter 12:
"And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire; but would by all means restrain himself, and adorn himself with virtue, that he might obtain the good gifts of God, and escape the punishments. For those who, on account of the laws and punishments you impose, endeavour to escape detection when they offend (and they offend, too, under the impression that it is quite possible to escape your detection, since you are but men), those persons, if they learned and were convinced that nothing, whether actually done or only intended, can escape the knowledge of God, would by all means live decently on account of the penalties threatened, as even you yourselves will admit. But you seem to fear lest all men become righteous, and you no longer have any to punish. Such would be the concern of public executioners, but not of good princes."

This is a very telling statement indeed, very similar to what was mentioned in the Martyrdom of Polycarp, If men know and believe that there is eternal judgement to come in the future, They would be begging God to rescue them from their evil ways and repent. Telling someone that judgement only last for a brief time isn't going to compel them to repent.

We also take a look at Chapter 20:
"And the Sibyl and Hystaspes said that there should be a dissolution by God of things corruptible. And the philosophers called Stoics teach that even God Himself shall be resolved into fire, and they say that the world is to be formed anew by this revolution; but we understand that God, the Creator of all things, is superior to the things that are to be changed. If, therefore, on some points we teach the same things as the poets and philosophers whom you honour, and on other points are fuller and more divine in our teaching, and if we alone afford proof of what we assert, why are we unjustly hated more than all others? For while we say that all things have been produced and arranged into a world by God, we shall seem to utter the doctrine of Plato; and while we say that there will be a burning up of all, we shall seem to utter the doctrine of the Stoics: and while we affirm that the souls of the wicked, being endowed with sensation even after death, are punished, and that those of the good being delivered from punishment spend a blessed existence, we shall seem to say the same things as the poets and philosophers; and while we maintain that men ought not to worship the works of their hands, we say the very things which have been said by the comic poet Menander, and other similar writers, for they have declared that the workman is greater than the work."

It is of paramount importance to note that Justin isn't saying that hellfire itself comes from the stoics or pagans, he is affirming the opposite, that the pagans are actually BORROWING from the Christians and that the Christians have the true, fuller picture of biblical truth. The same can be said of the following passage in Chapter 21:

The point of the pagans borrowing from the Christians I have already mentioned and can be found in the chapter, but let us look here at this particular statement:

"But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire."

Observe also Chapter 29:
"For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. For the reason why God has delayed to do this, is His regard for the human race. For He foreknows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born. In the beginning He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God; for they have been born rational and contemplative. And if any one disbelieves that God cares for these things, he will thereby either insinuate that God does not exist, or he will assert that though He exists He delights in vice, or exists like a stone, and that neither virtue nor vice are anything, but only in the opinion of men these things are reckoned good or evil. And this is the greatest profanity and wickedness."

Justin makes the point here very effectively:
1. Satan and the demons and those who follow them are thrown into the fire for eternal punishment.
2. Those who follow Satan  and the demons are thrown into the fire for eternal punishment.
3. The word eternal isn't merely a duration
4. God has delayed judgement to give the human race a chance to repent
5. Only a few shall repent and turn to Christ with no indication of a second chance after death
6. All men are without excuse, a point that echoes Paul's own words (Romans 1:20)
7. Those who deny God exists and live in their sins are condemned.

Moving on to Chapter 45:
"And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation— hear what was said by the prophet David. These are his words: The Lord said unto My Lord, Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. The Lord shall send to You the rod of power out of Jerusalem; and rule You in the midst of Your enemies. With You is the government in the day of Your power, in the beauties of Your saints: from the womb of morning have I begotten You. That which he says, He shall send to You the rod of power out of Jerusalem, is predictive of the mighty word, which His apostles, going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere; and though death is decreed against those who teach or at all confess the name of Christ, we everywhere both embrace and teach it. And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, you can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by fire."

I think this passage speaks for itself.

And finally Chapter 52:
"Since, then, we prove that all things which have already happened had been predicted by the prophets before they came to pass, we must necessarily believe also that those things which are in like manner predicted, but are yet to come to pass, shall certainly happen. For as the things which have already taken place came to pass when foretold, and even though unknown, so shall the things that remain, even though they be unknown and disbelieved, yet come to pass. For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him. Ezekiel 37:7-8; Isaiah 45:24 And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; Isaiah 66:24 and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, have You made us to err from Your way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame."

Many will bow to the knee of Jesus when he returns, but it will be too late to accept him and they will be chucked into eternal hellfire.

That's all that I have to say on Justin Martyr, at least for the time being.

Answering Judaism.

Universalism and the Church Fathers

Origen, an early church Father is often considered the one whom universalism came from. Some suggest that Gregory of Nyssa even taught universalism, but that can be contested. Did the early Church Fathers teach universalism? Let's take a look at the letters of the Fathers
You can read Gregory of Nyssa's document here: http://newadvent.org/fathers/2908.htm

As I have said in a previous paper, To claim Universalism was taught by the early church because it wasn't condemned at that time but only later is an argument from silence. The fact the Bible itself doesn't teach universalism condemns their heresy regardless of a council, just as Anti Trinitarianism is condemned by the Bible regardless of a council opposing it. Tertullian in his letter against Praexeus condemned Modalism. Are we to assume that Modalism is valid just because a council condemned it later? A council isn't the ultimate authority, the Bible is but that doesn't mean it is the only authority. The council as an authority can be used but the council is subordinate to the Bible.

A church father not explicitly writing against or addressing universalism is irrelevant, but what they say about the destiny of man nevertheless, puts a lot of the arguments used by the universalists down.

Granted even if a church father was a hopeful universalist, it still gives NO credence to the universalist position as a valid position to take.

The argument that a church father saying "eternal punishment means he actually meant just punished for a long time" is not going to cut it either.

Irenaeus of Lyons may be explored in another article if the Lord Wills.

Ignatius of Antioch
We read the following from Ignatius of Antioch, a student of the apostle John and this is what he said:

"Chapter 16. The fate of false teachers

Do not err, my brethren. James 1:16 Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.

Chapter 17. Beware of false doctrines

For this end did the Lord allow the ointment to be poured upon His head, John 12:7 that He might breathe immortality into His Church. Be not anointed with the bad odour of the doctrine of the prince of this world; let him not lead you away captive from the life which is set before you. And why are we not all prudent, since we have received the knowledge of God, which is Jesus Christ? Why do we foolishly perish, not recognising the gift which the Lord has of a truth sent to us?" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0104.htm

Ignatius gives us a stern warning with respect to false teachers and even tells us the fate of such men in the context. He warns us against the false doctrines of men and those who hold to the false teachings will be lost, as well as those who take those false teachings as true.

He doesn't explicitly or implicitly say that those in hell will eventually be redeemed, he rather indicates that their fate will go on forever, not purely for an age or a period.

Second Clement
Within the context of this letter, there is a common theme running through. To love not the world nor the things of this world and to submit to Christ.

The letter itself speaks of a severe penalty for those who do not obey Jesus and the Gospel:
"2Clement 5:5 And ye know, brethren, that the sojourn of this flesh in this world
is mean and for a short time, but the promise of Christ is great and
marvelous, even the rest of the kingdom that shall be and of life
eternal. 5:6 What then can we do to obtain them, but walk in holiness and
righteousness, and consider these worldly things as alien to us, and
not desire them? 5:7 For when we desire to obtain these things we fall away from the
righteous path. 6:1 But the Lord saith, No servant can serve two masters. If we
desire to serve both God and mammon, it is unprofitable for us: 6:2
For what advantage is it, if a man gain the whole world and forfeit
his soul? 6:3 Now this age and the future are two enemies. 6:4
The one speaketh of adultery and defilement and avarice and deceit,
but the other biddeth farewell to these. 6:5 We cannot therefore be friends of the two, but must bid farewell to the one and hold companionship with the other. 6:6
Let us consider that it is better to hate the things which are here,
because they are mean and for a short time and perishable, and to
love the things which are there, for they are good and imperishable.
For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if
otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if
we should disobey His commandments."

The warning is to believers, but the message still remains. Eternal punishment awaits those who do not listen to Jesus and resist his will, going their own way and making it clear we cannot live in the pleasures of sin and claim Christ as our rock and foundation. We also observe another point made by the writer:
"2Clem 8:1 While we are on earth then, let us repent: for we are clay under the
craftsman's hand. 8:2 For in like manner as the potter, if he be making a vessel, and it
get twisted or crushed in his hands, reshapeth it again; but if he have once put it into the fiery oven, he shall no longer mend it: so also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance. 8:3 For after that we have departed out of the world, we can no more make confession there, or repent any more. 8:4 Wherefore, brethren, if we shall have done the will of the Father and kept the flesh pure and guarded the commandments of the Lord, we shall receive life eternal."

Once death occurs, the time for repentance and forgiveness ends. There is nothing in this letter to suggest that one has a second chance after death, Clement of Rome happens to believe there isn't such.

To further look into his words we see this:
"2Clem 16:1 Therefore, brethren, since we have found no small opportunity for
repentance, seeing that we have time, let us turn again unto God that
called us, while we have still One that receiveth us. 16:2 For if we bid farewell to these enjoyments and conquer our soul in refusing to fulfill its evil lusts, we shall be partakers of the mercy of Jesus. 16:3But ye know that the day of judgment cometh even now as a burning oven, and the powers of the heavens shall melt, and all the earth as lead melting on the fire, and then shall appear the secret and open works of men. 16:4 Almsgiving therefore is a good thing, even as repentance from sin> Fasting is better than prayer, but almsgiving better than both. And love covereth a multitude of sins, but prayer out of a good conscience delivereth from death. Blessed is every man that is found full of these. For almsgiving lifteth off the burden of sin. 

17:1 Let us therefore repent with our whole heart, lest any of us perish by the way. For if we have received commands, that we should make this our business, to tear men away from idols and to instruct them, how much more is it wrong that a soul which knoweth God already should perish! 17:2 Therefore let us assist one another, that we may also lead the weak upward as touching that which is good, to the end that we all may be saved: and let us convert and admonish one another. 17:3 And let us not think to give heed and believe now only, while we have departed home, let us remember the commandments of the Lord, and not suffer ourselves to be dragged off the other way by our worldly lusts; but coming hither more frequently, let us strive to go forward in the commandments of the Lord, that we all having the same mind may be gathered together unto life. 17:4 For the Lord said, I come to gather together all the nations, tribes, and languages. Herein He speaketh of the day of His appearing, when He shall come and redeem us, each man according to his works. 17:5 And the unbelievers shall see His glory and His might: and they shall be amazed when they see the kingdom of the world given to Jesus, saying, Woe unto us, for Thou wast, and we knew it not, and believed not; and we obeyed not the presbyters when they told us of our salvation. And Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be for a spectacle unto all flesh. 17:6 He speaketh of that day of judgment, when men shall see those among us that live ungodly lives and dealt falsely with the commandments of Jesus Christ. 17:7 But the righteous, done good and endured torments and hated pleasures of the soul, when they shall behold them that have
done amiss and denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds, how that they are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire, shall give glory to God, saying, There will be hope for him that hath served God with his whole heart."

Pleasure is not the highest calling of the Christian life. While there may be debates about certain issues such as hobbies, sports, movies etc as to whether or not a Christian can do these things or not, Regardless of such, they are NOT the highest calling of Christian people.

There is a penalty on those who live wicked lives and not repent. They may witness the glory of Christ, but they will never be saved, neither in this age nor the age to come. We are told by Clement to repent NOW, to receive Christ NOW and not later.
You can read the letter in question here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/2clement-lightfoot.html

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
In this letter, we observe a few things:
"Polycarp 2:1 Blessed therefore and noble are all the martyrdoms which have taken place according to the will of God (for it behoveth us to be very scrupulous and to assign to God the power over all things). 2:2 For who could fail to admire their nobleness and patient endurance and loyalty to the Master? seeing that when they were so torn by lashes that the mechanism of their flesh was visible even as far as the inward veins and arteries, they endured patiently, so that the very bystanders had pity and wept; while they themselves reached such a pitch of bravery that none of them uttered a cry or a groan, thus showing to us all that at that hour the martyrs of Christ being tortured were absent from the flesh, or rather that the Lord was standing by and conversing with them. 2:3 And giving heed unto the grace of Christ they despised the tortures of this world, purchasing at the cost of one hour a release from eternal punishment. And they found the fire of their inhuman torturers cold: for they set before their eyes the escape from the eternal fire which is never quenched; while with the eyes of their heart they gazed upon the good things which are reserved for those that endure patiently, things which neither ear hath heard nor eye hath seen, neither have they entered into the heart of man, but were shown by the Lord to them, for they were no longer men but angels already. 2:4 And in like manner also those that were condemned to the wild beasts endured fearful punishments, being made to lie on sharp shells and buffeted with other forms of manifold tortures, that the devil might, if possible, by the persistence of the punishment bring them to a denial; for he tried many wiles against them.

Polycarp 3:1 But thanks be to God; for He verily prevailed against all. For the right noble Germanicus encouraged their timorousness through the constancy which was in him; and he fought with the wild beasts in a signal way. For when the proconsul wished to prevail upon him and bade him have pity on his youth, he used violence and dragged the wild beast towards him, desiring the more speedily to obtain a release from their unrighteous and lawless life. 3:2 So after this all the multitude, marvelling at the bravery of the God-beloved and God-fearing people of the Christians, raised a cry, 'Away with the atheists; let search be made for Polycarp.'

Polycarp 4:1
But one man, Quintus by name, a Phrygian newly arrived from Phrygia, when he saw the wild beasts, turned coward. He it was who had forced himself and some others to come forward of their own free will. This man the proconsul by much entreaty persuaded to swear the oath and to offer incense. For this cause therefore, brethren, we praise not those who deliver themselves up, since the Gospel doth not so teach us."

The believers who suffered for the name of Jesus were quite willing to endure a short time of persecution for the sake of Jesus and recognized the price of rejecting Jesus or not believing in him, which would result in not hell fire lasting for a season, but hell fire lasting for eternity.

Hear also what Polycarp says to the proconsul in the context:
"Polycarp 11:1 Whereupon the proconsul said; 'I have wild beasts here and I will throw thee to them, except thou repent' But he said, 'Call for them: for the repentance from better to worse is a change not permitted to us; but it is a noble thing to change from untowardness to righteousness' 11:2 Then he said to him again, 'I will cause thee to be consumed by fire, if thou despisest the wild beasts, unless thou repent.' But Polycarp said; 'Thou threatenest that fire which burneth for a season and after a little while is quenched: for thou art ignorant of the fire of the future judgment and eternal punishment, which is reserved for the ungodly. But why delayest thou? Come, do what thou wilt.'"

Here is a point to drive home, The proconsol would not be threatened by a judgement by that was temporary, that would not instill a fear into his heart, because it would be a place where he would look forward to getting out of said hellfire.

Here is the whole of The Martyrdom of Polycarp for you to read: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/martyrdompolycarp-lightfoot.html

The Epistle to Diognetis
Mathetes wrote this letter to give an exposition on the Christian faith to Diognetis, a ruler. This is what Mathetes says in Chapter 10 of his letter:
"10:5 For happiness consisteth not in lordship over one's neighbours, nor in desiring to have more than weaker men, nor in possessing wealth and using force to inferiors; neither can any one imitate God in these matters; nay, these lie outside His greatness. 10:6 But whosoever taketh upon himself the burden of his neighbour, whosoever desireth to benefit one that is worse off in that in which he himself is superior, whosoever by supplying to those that are in want possessions which he received from God becomes a God to those who receive them from him, he is an imitator of God.

10:7 Then, though thou art placed on earth, thou shalt behold that God liveth in heaven; then shalt thou begin to declare the mysteries of God; then shalt thou both love and admire those that are punished because they will not deny God; then shalt thou condemn the deceit and error of the world; when thou shalt perceive the true life which is in heaven, when thou shalt despise the apparent death which is here on earth, when thou shalt fear the real death, which is reserved for those that shall be condemned to the eternal fire that shall punish those delivered over to it unto the end. 10:8 Then shalt thou admire those who endure for righteousness' sake the fire that is for a season, and shalt count them blessed when thou perceivest that fire ..." http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-lightfoot.html

Christians endure persecution for a season but will receive the gift of heaven at the end of their struggle, whereas the unrighteous people's punishment will last for ever. Why fear the second death if it doesn't have eternal consequences?

To Autolycus Book 1 chapters 1-14

"Therefore, do not be sceptical, but believe; for I myself also used to disbelieve that this would take place, but now, having taken these things into consideration, I believe. At the same time, I met with the sacred Scriptures of the holy prophets, who also by the Spirit of God foretold the things that have already happened, just as they came to pass, and the things now occurring as they are now happening, and things future in the order in which they shall be accomplished. Admitting, therefore, the proof which events happening as predicted afford, I do not disbelieve, but I believe, obedient to God, whom, if you please, do you also submit to, believing Him, lest if now you continue unbelieving, you be convinced hereafter, when you are tormented with eternal punishments; which punishments, when they had been foretold by the prophets, the later-born poets and philosophers stole from the holy Scriptures, to make their doctrines worthy of credit. Yet these also have spoken beforehand of the punishments that are to light upon the profane and unbelieving, in order that none be left without a witness, or be able to say, We have not heard, neither have we known. But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures, and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments, and obtaining the eternal prizes of God. For He who gave the mouth for speech, and formed the ear to hear, and made the eye to see, will examine all things, and will judge righteous judgment, rendering merited awards to each. To those who by patient continuance in well-doing Romans 2:7 seek immortality, He will give life everlasting, joy, peace, rest, and abundance of good things, which neither has eye seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man to conceive. 1 Corinthians 2:9 But to the unbelieving and despisers, who obey not the truth, but are obedient to unrighteousness, when they shall have been filled with adulteries and fornications, and filthiness, and covetousness, and unlawful idolatries, there shall be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish, Romans 2:8-9 and at the last everlasting fire shall possess such men. Since you said, Show me your God, this is my God, and I counsel you to fear Him and to trust Him." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02041.htm

I think Theophilis who wrote the letter speaks for himself quite plainly. Need any explanation regarding hellfire?

Athengoras
In his plea for the Christians, this is what Athengoras said:
"But they have further also made up stories against us of impious feasts and forbidden intercourse between the sexes, both that they may appear to themselves to have rational grounds of hatred, and because they think either by fear to lead us away from our way of life, or to render the rulers harsh and inexorable by the magnitude of the charges they bring. But they lose their labour with those who know that from of old it has been the custom, and not in our time only, for vice to make war on virtue. Thus Pythagoras, with three hundred others, was burnt to death; Heraclitus and Democritus were banished, the one from the city of the Ephesians, the other from Abdera, because he was charged with being mad; and the Athenians condemned Socrates to death. But as they were none the worse in respect of virtue because of the opinion of the multitude, so neither does the undiscriminating calumny of some persons cast any shade upon us as regards rectitude of life, for with God we stand in good repute. Nevertheless, I will meet these charges also, although I am well assured that by what has been already said I have cleared myself to you. For as you excel all men in intelligence, you know that those whose life is directed towards God as its rule, so that each one among us may be blameless and irreproachable before Him, will not entertain even the thought of the slightest sin. For if we believed that we should live only the present life, then we might be suspected of sinning, through being enslaved to flesh and blood, or overmastered by gain or carnal desire; but since we know that God is witness to what we think and what we say both by night and by day, and that He, being Himself light, sees all things in our heart, we are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one, and heavenly, not earthly (since we shall abide near God, and with God, free from all change or suffering in the soul, not as flesh, even though we shall have flesh, but as heavenly spirit), or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated. On these grounds it is not likely that we should wish to do evil, or deliver ourselves over to the great Judge to be punished." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0205.htm

The context of the letter is a plea to the government to treat Christians in a dignified way, as well as dealing with misconceptions about the Christian life, what polytheism is, true conduct among believers etc. Basically it is a lengthy paper dealing with numerous points. Athengoras points out that there are two destinies awaiting man, one of eternal joy and one of eternal damnation, but not hint of leaving hell is given implicitly.

Tertullian of Carthage, Apology
Let us now take a look at Tertullian. Here is Chapter 18:
"But, that we might attain an ampler and more authoritative knowledge at once of Himself, and of His counsels and will, God has added a written revelation for the benefit of every one whose heart is set on seeking Him, that seeking he may find, and finding believe, and believing obey. For from the first He sent messengers into the world—men whose stainless righteousness made them worthy to know the Most High, and to reveal Him—men abundantly endowed with the Holy Spirit, that they might proclaim that there is one God only who made all things, who formed man from the dust of the ground (for He is the true Prometheus who gave order to the world by arranging the seasons and their course)—these have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in His judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favour, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense."

While he is giving an exposition on the Christian faith, Tertullian himself points out that hell itself doesn't end. He doesn't give any implicit evidence of hell ceasing.

We'll also look at Chapter 45:
"We, then, alone are without crime. Is there ought wonderful in that, if it be a very necessity with us? For a necessity indeed it is. Taught of God himself what goodness is, we have both a perfect knowledge of it as revealed to us by a perfect Master; and faithfully we do His will, as enjoined on us by a Judge we dare not despise. But your ideas of virtue you have got from mere human opinion; on human authority, too, its obligation rests: hence your system of practical morality is deficient, both in the fullness and authority requisite to produce a life of real virtue. Man's wisdom to point out what is good, is no greater than his authority to exact the keeping of it; the one is as easily deceived as the other is despised. And so, which is the ampler rule, to say, You shall not kill, or to teach, Be not even angry? Which is more perfect, to forbid adultery, or to restrain from even a single lustful look? Which indicates the higher intelligence, interdicting evil-doing, or evil-speaking? Which is more thorough, not allowing an injury, or not even suffering an injury done to you to be repaid? Though withal you know that these very laws also of yours, which seem to lead to virtue, have been borrowed from the law of God as the ancient model. Of the age of Moses we have already spoken. But what is the real authority of human laws, when it is in man's power both to evade them, by generally managing to hide himself out of sight in his crimes, and to despise them sometimes, if inclination or necessity leads him to offend? Think of these things, too, in the light of the brevity of any punishment you can inflict— never to last longer than till death. On this ground Epicurus makes light of all suffering and pain, maintaining that if it is small, it is contemptible; and if it is great, it is not long-continued. No doubt about it, we, who receive our awards under the judgment of an all-seeing God, and who look forward to eternal punishment from Him for sin—we alone make real effort to attain a blameless life, under the influence of our ampler knowledge, the impossibility of concealment, and the greatness of the threatened torment, not merely long-enduring but everlasting, fearing Him, whom he too should fear who the fearing judges,— even God, I mean, and not the proconsul."

Tertullian makes an interesting point regarding human morality from their own opinion to human morality from a divine perspective, that goodness is revealed by God and no one else and talks about what makes a blameless life. He even confirms a point that I have made previously, what everlasting actually means, namely something that lasts forever and not merely for a time.

We shall take a look at more church fathers in another paper.

Answering Judaism.